Are We Punished for Adam's Sin?

[Killer_Man_]

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Can someone please help me? My friend is trying to contradict the Bible blah blah blah. I don't know why but he just gone on a anti-christian rampage and I can't defend it because I just don't know.

Espeically since I'm a Lutheran and the way I believe it is that since Christ came into the world and left the world. The old laws do not apply anymore save for the 10 commandments.

Friend (2:00:56 AM): well that's it in a nutshell, adam eating the apple != our damnation until christ
Friend(2:01:07 AM): christ died for nothing
Friend(2:01:10 AM): because we had nothing to pay for

KMEchihogKnight (2:00:24 AM): Hmm, to me the way I see it. Is that if the Father does something that affects the family as a whole. Do not blame the child or anyone who is part of that family... And that as well my father can not send me to hell. Only my own actions.
KMEchihogKnight (2:00:41 AM): What my Dad does can not send me to hell. Only my own actions
KMEchihogKnight (2:00:53 AM): Then again, heh, Bible interpertation is horrible and what you see can be different than anyone else.


So if someone please can get me some info, thanks.

[Gerrymander]

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

Can someone please help me? My friend is trying to contradict the Bible blah blah blah. I don't know why but he just gone on a anti-christian rampage and I can't defend it because I just don't know.

Espeically since I'm a Lutheran and the way I believe it is that since Christ came into the world and left the world. The old laws do not apply anymore save for the 10 commandments.

Friend (2:00:56 AM): well that's it in a nutshell, adam eating the apple != our damnation until christ
Friend(2:01:07 AM): christ died for nothing
Friend(2:01:10 AM): because we had nothing to pay for

KMEchihogKnight (2:00:24 AM): Hmm, to me the way I see it. Is that if the Father does something that affects the family as a whole. Do not blame the child or anyone who is part of that family... And that as well my father can not send me to hell. Only my own actions.
KMEchihogKnight (2:00:41 AM): What my Dad does can not send me to hell. Only my own actions
KMEchihogKnight (2:00:53 AM): Then again, heh, Bible interpertation is horrible and what you see can be different than anyone else.


So if someone please can get me some info, thanks.


I'm not sure exactly what he's arguing...get him to explain his point a little more and I'll tear it to little tiny shreds for you.

[Bloodcinder]

One easy answer: we're not really punished because of Adam's sin. We're sinful because of Adam's sin. We have sin in us because of Adam's decision, but the specific sins we commit are not punishable upon our descendants.

[dinowoman]

I agree with Bloodcinder. The point at which Adam chose to eat the apple, even though he knew it was wrong, was the point at which sin came into the world. All of us have inherited that sinful nature and commit sins of one kind or another, so all of us deserve punishment. We aren't punishmed because of what he did, but because we have inherited his nature and so are sinful. Jesus took the punishment that we deserve for our own individual sins upon himself by dying for us. Adam's own punishment is not passed down to us, so it's not Adam's individual sinful act that he died for.

I personally don't take the story of Adam and Eve and the apple literally. I believe it to be an allegorical story that represents the point at which mankind became capable of recognising right from wrong. It that point we also became capable of knowing that something is wrong, but doing it anyway. That is sin. Once we reached that stage mankind became sinful and incompatible with God, for whom sin is anathema. So he sent Jesus to take our punishment and figuratively cleanse us so that we could once again be accepted into God's presence (heaven).

A lot of Jews believed that bad things that happened to people were punishments for sins committed by their parents, but both Ezekiel and Jesus himself emphasised that this was not the case.

[Bloodcinder]

This is a worthwhile topic with plenty of foreseeable tangents ahead...

Split off from Random Talkfest.

[Killer_Man_]

I'm not sure exactly what he's arguing...get him to explain his point a little more and I'll tear it to little tiny shreds for you.

Basically he was saying that the Bible contradicts itself a lot.

Since the verse says that we do not share the guilt of father/son. Thus being since if we do not share anything. Christ did not need to die. I do believe he was going on too that it seemed that God is punishing us for being human and should have known better.

But yeah I agree with you BC. I mentioned that to him cause I did say that my father could be Hilter but I wouldn't go to Hell because of his actions. Only my actions.

[Gerrymander]

Well, I was raised Catholic, so with the idea with Original Sin and all, and I think that's what he's trying to argue with. And since there's still BS with Original Sin in the Catholic Church today, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point of Jesus's death.

Jesus's death wasn't to completely grant preemptive salvation to everyone. It was to act as the ultimate sacrifice so everyone could have salvation through the forgiveness of God. Before that, I think it was if you sinned, then you sinned, and you're fucked.

Christ died to allow people a chance at salvation. All Ezekiel is saying with that verse is that ONLY the sinner will be damned, and none of his descendants or family will have to be fucked over because of it.

[Gio Takahashi]

No I don't believe that we are punished for Sins of Adam, but it is through Sins of Adams that caused the fall of mankind.

I was taught that no one could go to Heaven until Jesus died on the cross for the sins of Mankind.

I was also taught that those that did follow God, prior to the Death of Jesus were held in Limbus, but there were some people that were taken directly to Heaven.

[chefTENGU]

I personally don't take the story of Adam and Eve and the apple literally. I believe it to be an allegorical story that represents the point at which mankind became capable of recognising right from wrong. It that point we also became capable of knowing that something is wrong, but doing it anyway. That is sin. Once we reached that stage mankind became sinful and incompatible with God, for whom sin is anathema. So he sent Jesus to take our punishment and figuratively cleanse us so that we could once again be accepted into God's presence (heaven)
That's more or less that Catholic Church's stance, in a nutshell. The account given in Genesis is not historical, but symbolic.

For further elaboration, and on the nature of Original Sin (as relevant to this argument, I could go on for pages):

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man." By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as are all implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all of human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but their sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"?a state and not an act.

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin?an inclination to evil that is called "concupiscence." Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546).

?Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 404-6

Also, the redemption Christ brought to the world by his death and resurrection is an event which affects all time; the harrowing of Hell is a medieval understanding of this concept. When I was in high school, it was explained to me this way:

Imagine that time is like an eternal thread, looped into a spiral. Christ's resurrection is like something that this thread is wrapped around, so that it touches every point in time equally.

[Seegtease]

By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but their sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.

This is pretty accurate, I'd say. However, I prefer to say that because of the fallen nature that we have, we are no longer created perfect as Adam was. At least, we are no longer in the image of God because of Adam's sin.

This also means that every single human after Adam would have also fallen to the same sin as Adam did. After all, if man created in God's image sinned, how can a fallen man not commit the same sins if put in the same situation?

However, I think due to our sinful nature, we are not worthy to enter into God's presence. I don't think we somehow become damned after we commit our first sin in life. Having a sinful nature is significant, because human's will not typically go against their nature. If it is your nature to enjoy apples but hate oranges, you will likely eat very few oranges and many apples. You are bound by your preferences. You could go against them, but it's very unnatural to do so. I could go into this further but then it'd end up turning into an election debate.

Jesus's death wasn't to completely grant preemptive salvation to everyone. It was to act as the ultimate sacrifice so everyone could have salvation through the forgiveness of God. Before that, I think it was if you sinned, then you sinned, and you're fucked.

That isn't true. If that were the case, everybody would be in Hell, including Abraham and Moses. However, the Bible says we will see Abraham in Heaven. There was purpose to the animal sacrifices of old, and that was mostly symbolism of what was to come (Jesus). It was also an act of obedience.

[chefTENGU]

This is pretty accurate, I'd say. However, I prefer to say that because of the fallen nature that we have, we are no longer created perfect as Adam was. At least, we are no longer in the image of God because of Adam's sin.
Yeah, that's the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

I'm not sure of the specifics of the Lutheran tradition, but it's probably quite similar and along those lines.

That isn't true. If that were the case, everybody would be in Hell, including Abraham and Moses. However, the Bible says we will see Abraham in Heaven. There was purpose to the animal sacrifices of old, and that was mostly symbolism of what was to come (Jesus). It was also an act of obedience.
I posted a little bit above about what Catholics believe Christ's death and resurrection means for people who lived and died before his time.