VP Debates

[Arainach]

What bullshit. Moderator should be fired and never allowed to moderate anything again; I don't think Palin gave a straight answer to a question all night; she kept veering off topic and repeating vanilla talking points. Totally worthless, and the moderator should have called her on it.

On the other hand, I think that while Biden wasn't quite as camera-friendly as Palin, he kicked ass in terms of policy and knowledge.

[Gio Takahashi]

Maverick

that's all I'll say for now.

[deathofcheese]

I've heard that both have slipped and said, "Senator Obiden".

[chefTENGU]

I think Palin's going to name her next child Bipartisan Maverick.

Ary's right. Palin had no clue about anything she was talking about and it showed; every response she gave she ramblingly twisted into the same vague rhetoric that's given me (and I'm sure just about everyone else) a serious headache about this campaign. I especially liked the part near the beginning when she essentially waved her middle finger at the moderator and said (more or less) "I don't give a shit about answering any questions, all I care about is what publicity I can get."

I take back everything I said about Biden being like Dan Quayle. He kicked ass like Phoenix Wright today.

[Arainach]

Dear God. A CNN political commentator just described Palin as "a serious contender for 2012".

Let me state now, officially, on the record. I hereby swear to God, Satan, Allah, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Scout's Honor, and on whatever binding oath you believe in that if Palin is run as a serious political candidate I am moving to another country. I don't care if she wins or not. If she is put forward as a serious presidential contender this nation is beyond saving.

[Killer_Man_]

Ary, you know for a fact that if that happens. Hiliary will either win or the democracy will put someone up there that is a man.

And you know how sexist this country is.

[deathofcheese]

Funny about your comment about Palin's tendency to avoid direct answers, my dad (who watched the debate on Fox News; I didn't watch it period) said that he thought Biden avoided more questions by quoting vague statistics instead of giving a direct answer. However, I can tell that he wasn't too thrilled about the debate because he kept saying over and over about how fair and no-nonsense it was instead of his being exurberant over how Palin trounced Biden. He felt the same way about the first Obama/McCain debate, and likewise McCain wasn't a clear victor.

And what exactly did you mean about the moderator should get fired? Were you just referring to how she didn't call out Palin for giving bad responses or was there something else the moderator did/didn't do? Dad was saying he admired the moderator from her history on PBS and her appearances on Meet The Press (which he used to watch religiously). Specifically, he thought she's always been fair and not biased one way or the other regardless of the issue at hand or her own feelings on the matter.

[Arainach]

Being fair is more than just what questions you ask - it's also how much bullshit you tolerate in answers.

Also, Biden didn't quote "vague statistics". He gave precise numbers that were directly relevant to the questions at hand, showing that he really did understand what the hell was going on.Ary, you know for a fact that if that happens. Hiliary will either win or the democracy will put someone up there that is a man.

And you know how sexist this country is.I refer you to:I don't care if she wins or not. If she is put forward as a serious presidential contender this nation is beyond saving.

[Killer_Man_]

And I'm telling you, that there are far worse nations?

[Arainach]

And far better ones. I don't want to live in a country where mediocrity and being "normal" are valued in its leaders. I want to live in a country that looks for the best candidate, the most exceptional candidate, the most elite candidate. America's already too religious and too anti-intellectual. If we start applying that to our standards for executive leadership, I'm done. Canada, Europe, whatever. If it comes to it, I'll start evaluating my options. Because learning a new language is far less painful than having to put up with that kind of shit.

[Killer_Man_]

And far better ones. I don't want to live in a country where mediocrity and being "normal" are valued in its leaders. I want to live in a country that looks for the best candidate, the most exceptional candidate, the most elite candidate. America's already too religious and too anti-intellectual. If we start applying that to our standards for executive leadership, I'm done. Canada, Europe, whatever. If it comes to it, I'll start evaluating my options. Because learning a new language is far less painful than having to put up with that kind of shit.

Every country has it's share of problems, Ary. You only see ours the most because of the media. But, whatever floats your boat.

Perhaps in thirty years, you should run for president.

[Gerrymander]

ARY FOR MAYOR OF TOWN

[Gio Takahashi]

No in 30 years he'll replace Steven Ballmer for the next CEO of Microsoft :P

[chefTENGU]

Sechoes, I don't know what your dad's referring to. Biden's answers and rebuttals all included some basis in concrete fact, either historical, statistical, or scientific.

Palin, on the other hand, seemed like she could only quote whatever her coaches taught her to repeat. For example, on the question of plans for Iraq:

Palin: We totally have a plan, I swear. I just don't want to tell you.

Biden: Shift more responsibility (both manpower and expense) off of us and onto Iraq, gradual withdrawal of American troops, we'll be out in 16 months.

Or on global warming:

Palin: I don't know if humans are responsible, per se, but I don't really care about what caused it, anyway. We should definitely do something, though.

Biden: Human activity is almost certainly the cause. We need to shift our emphasis off of oil and onto other, cleaner alternatives, like clean coal, nuclear, solar, wind, and others. Furthermore, it's simply not enough to only change ourselves, we must be able to export this technology overseas, or we'll only ever see limited success.

[Gio Takahashi]

that's pretty much how I understood it too. Biden, no doubt knew what he was talking about and was very clear in his answers and explanation. Palin, on the other hand, made no sense, and was very hard to follow, I find myself having to rewind several time just to attempt to understand what she was saying.

there's no doubt about it: Joe Biden won the debate by a long shot.

[Z]

Sechoes, I don't know what your dad's referring to. Biden's answers and rebuttals all included some basis in concrete fact, either historical, statistical, or scientific.

Palin, on the other hand, seemed like she could only quote whatever her coaches taught her to repeat. For example, on the question of plans for Iraq:

Palin: We totally have a plan, I swear. I just don't want to tell you.

Biden: Shift more responsibility (both manpower and expense) off of us and onto Iraq, gradual withdrawal of American troops, we'll be out in 16 months.


IFILL: You both have sons who are in Iraq or on their way to Iraq. You, Governor Palin, have said that you would like to see a real clear plan for an exit strategy. What should that be, Governor?

PALIN: I am very thankful that we do have a good plan and the surge and the counterinsurgency strategy in Iraq that has proven to work, I am thankful that that is part of the plan implemented under a great American hero, General Petraeus, and pushed hard by another great American, Senator John McCain.

I know that the other ticket opposed this surge, in fact, even opposed funding for our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Barack Obama voted against funding troops there after promising that he would not do so.

PALIN: And Senator Biden, I respected you when you called him out on that. You said that his vote was political and you said it would cost lives. And Barack Obama at first said he would not do that. He turned around under political pressure and he voted against funding the troops. We do have a plan for withdrawal. We don't need early withdrawal out of Iraq. We cannot afford to lose there or we're going to be no better off in the war in Afghanistan either. We have got to win in Iraq.

And with the surge that has worked we're now down to presurge numbers in Iraq. That's where we can be. We can start putting more troops in Afghanistan as we also work with our NATO allies who are there strengthening us and we need to grow our military. We cannot afford to lose against al Qaeda and the Shia extremists who are still there, still fighting us, but we're getting closer and closer to victory. And it would be a travesty if we quit now in Iraq.

IFILL: Senator?

BIDEN: Gwen, with all due respect, I didn't hear a plan. Barack Obama offered a clear plan. Shift responsibility to Iraqis over the next 16 months. Draw down our combat troops. Ironically the same plan that Maliki, the prime minister of Iraq and George Bush are now negotiating. The only odd man out here, only one left out is John McCain, number one. Number two, with regard to Barack Obama not quote funding the troops, John McCain voted the exact same way. John McCain voted against funding the troops because of an amendment he voted against had a timeline in it to draw down American troops. And John said I'm not going to fund the troops if in fact there's a time line. Barack Obama and I agree fully and completely on one thing. You've got to have a time line to draw down the troops and shift responsibility to the Iraqis.

We're spending $10 billion a month while Iraqis have an $80 billion surplus. Barack says it's time for them to spend their own money and have the 400,000 military we trained for them begin to take their own responsibility and gradually over 16 months, withdrawal. John McCain -- this is a fundamental difference between us, we'll end this war. For John McCain, there's no end in sight to end this war, fundamental difference. We will end this war.

IFILL: Governor?

PALIN: Your plan is a white flag of surrender in Iraq and that is not what our troops need to hear today, that's for sure. And it's not what our nation needs to be able to count on. You guys opposed the surge. The surge worked. Barack Obama still can't admit the surge works.

We'll know when we're finished in Iraq when the Iraqi government can govern its people and when the Iraqi security forces can secure its people. And our commanders on the ground will tell us when those conditions have been met. And Maliki and Talabani also in working with us are knowing again that we are getting closer and closer to that point, that victory that's within sight.

Now, you said regarding Senator McCain's military policies there, Senator Biden, that you supported a lot of these things. In fact, you said in fact that you wanted to run, you'd be honored to run with him on the ticket. That's an indication I think of some of the support that you had at least until you became the VP pick here.

You also said that Barack Obama was not ready to be commander in chief. And I know again that you opposed the move he made to try to cut off funding for the troops and I respect you for that. I don't know how you can defend that position now but I know that you know especially with your son in the National Guard and I have great respect for your family also and the honor that you show our military. Barack Obama though, another story there. Anyone I think who can cut off funding for the troops after promising not to is another story.

IFILL: Senator Biden?

BIDEN: John McCain voted to cut off funding for the troops. Let me say that again. John McCain voted against an amendment containing $1 billion, $600 million that I had gotten to get MRAPS, those things that are protecting the governor's son and pray god my son and a lot of other sons and daughters.

He voted against it. He voted against funding because he said the amendment had a time line in it to end this war. He didn't like that. But let's get straight who has been right and wrong. John McCain and Dick Cheney said while I was saying we would not be greeted as liberators, we would not - this war would take a decade and not a day, not a week and not six months, we would not be out of there quickly. John McCain was saying the Sunnis and Shias got along with each other without reading the history of the last 700 years. John McCain said there would be enough oil to pay for this. John McCain has been dead wrong. I love him. As my mother would say, god love him, but he's been dead wrong on the fundamental issues relating to the conduct of the war. Barack Obama has been right. There are the facts.

Or on global warming:

Palin: I don't know if humans are responsible, per se, but I don't really care about what caused it, anyway. We should definitely do something, though.

Biden: Human activity is almost certainly the cause. We need to shift our emphasis off of oil and onto other, cleaner alternatives, like clean coal, nuclear, solar, wind, and others. Furthermore, it's simply not enough to only change ourselves, we must be able to export this technology overseas, or we'll only ever see limited success.

Unless this transcript (http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/vice-presidential-debate.html) has omissions, they actually never directly discussed global warming. It was only mentioned once in a rebuttal.

IFILL: We do need to keep within our two minutes. But I just wanted to ask you, do you support capping carbon emissions?

PALIN: I do. I do.

IFILL: OK. And on the clean coal issue?

BIDEN: Absolutely. Absolutely we do. We call for setting hard targets, number one...

IFILL: Clean coal.

BIDEN: Oh, I'm sorry.

IFILL: On clean coal.

BIDEN: Oh, on clean coal. My record, just take a look at the record. My record for 25 years has supported clean coal technology. A comment made in a rope line was taken out of context. I was talking about exporting that technology to China so when they burn their dirty coal, it won't be as dirty, it will be clean.

But here's the bottom line, Gwen: How do we deal with global warming with continued addition to carbon emissions? And if the only answer you have is oil, and John -- and the governor says John is for everything.

Well, why did John vote 20 times? Maybe he's for everything as long as it's not helped forward by the government. Maybe he's for everything if the free market takes care of it. I don't know. But he voted 20 times against funding alternative energy sources.

• • • •

I was a little surprised to find out that neither side supports gay marriage, though

IFILL: Let's try to avoid nuance, Senator. Do you support gay marriage?

BIDEN: No. Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that. That is basically the decision to be able to be able to be left to faiths and people who practice their faiths the determination what you call it.

The bottom line though is, and I'm glad to hear the governor, I take her at her word, obviously, that she think there should be no civil rights distinction, none whatsoever, between a committed gay couple and a committed heterosexual couple. If that's the case, we really don't have a difference.

IFILL: Is that what your said?

PALIN: Your question to him was whether he supported gay marriage and my answer is the same as his and it is that I do not.

IFILL: Wonderful. You agree. On that note, let's move to foreign policy.
(LAUGHTER)



It kinda confuses me. Are they both supporting the idea of Separate But Equal type of thing?

[chefTENGU]

It must have left that part out, because global warming even got its own question. It was shortly before (perhaps even right before) the rebuttal you posted.

My whole thing with Palin's response to the Iraq question is that she didn't offer anything concrete about the future. Joe Biden voiced my thoughts 100% when he said "I didn't hear a plan."

I am very thankful that we do have a good plan and the surge and the counterinsurgency strategy in Iraq that has proven to work, I am thankful that that is part of the plan implemented under a great American hero, General Petraeus, and pushed hard by another great American, Senator John McCain.
"Of course we have a plan! Hey, wasn't the surge awesome?"

We do have a plan for withdrawal. We don't need early withdrawal out of Iraq. We cannot afford to lose there or we're going to be no better off in the war in Afghanistan either. We have got to win in Iraq.
"Sure we'll leave! Sometime in the future!"

We can start putting more troops in Afghanistan as we also work with our NATO allies who are there strengthening us and we need to grow our military.
Afghanistan is not Iraq.

I can see how one would be related to the other, of course. Hearing these words come out of her mouth pissed me off immensely. We should have finished the fight in Afghanistan before ever venturing into Iraq; it could have been DONE by now.

You guys opposed the surge. The surge worked. Barack Obama still can't admit the surge works.
"Yeah, shame on him! Oops, was I supposed to be talking about a plan?"

We'll know when we're finished in Iraq when the Iraqi government can govern its people and when the Iraqi security forces can secure its people. And our commanders on the ground will tell us when those conditions have been met.
Or how about we make Iraq the 51st state? Then we'd never have to leave!

This is the same reasoning McKinley used to justify the US occupation of the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. I find it patronizing to a nauseating degree.

You also said that Barack Obama was not ready to be commander in chief. And I know again that you opposed the move he made to try to cut off funding for the troops and I respect you for that.
And I will point out, as Biden had to do numerous times (every time Palin mentioned it, in fact), John McCain voted the exact same way on the bill in question, for solely political reasons (it included a timeline for withdrawal).

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I still don't see anything resembling a plan. Unless you count "it'll happen eventually" as a plan.

[Z]

I take that back about global warming. I did a Find for the "Global Warming" wording but they actually discussed it as "Climate Change"

FILL: Governor, I'm happy to talk to you in this next section about energy issues. Let's talk about climate change. What is true and what is false about what we have heard, read, discussed, debated about the causes of climate change?

PALIN: Yes. Well, as the nation's only Arctic state and being the governor of that state, Alaska feels and sees impacts of climate change more so than any other state. And we know that it's real.

I'm not one to attribute every man -- activity of man to the changes in the climate. There is something to be said also for man's activities, but also for the cyclical temperature changes on our planet.

But there are real changes going on in our climate. And I don't want to argue about the causes. What I want to argue about is, how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts?

We have got to clean up this planet. We have got to encourage other nations also to come along with us with the impacts of climate change, what we can do about that.

As governor, I was the first governor to form a climate change sub-cabinet to start dealing with the impacts. We've got to reduce emissions. John McCain is right there with an "all of the above" approach to deal with climate change impacts.

We've got to become energy independent for that reason. Also as we rely more and more on other countries that don't care as much about the climate as we do, we're allowing them to produce and to emit and even pollute more than America would ever stand for. So even in dealing with climate change, it's all the more reason that we have an "all of the above" approach, tapping into alternative sources of energy and conserving fuel, conserving our petroleum products and our hydrocarbons so that we can clean up this planet and deal with climate change.

IFILL: Senator, what is true and what is false about the causes?

BIDEN: Well, I think it is manmade. I think it's clearly manmade. And, look, this probably explains the biggest fundamental difference between John McCain and Barack Obama and Sarah Palin and Joe Biden -- Governor Palin and Joe Biden.

If you don't understand what the cause is, it's virtually impossible to come up with a solution. We know what the cause is. The cause is manmade. That's the cause. That's why the polar icecap is melting.

Now, let's look at the facts. We have 3 percent of the world's oil reserves. We consume 25 percent of the oil in the world. John McCain has voted 20 times in the last decade-and-a-half against funding alternative energy sources, clean energy sources, wind, solar, biofuels.

The way in which we can stop the greenhouse gases from emitting. We believe -- Barack Obama believes by investing in clean coal and safe nuclear, we can not only create jobs in wind and solar here in the United States, we can export it.

China is building one to three new coal-fired plants burning dirty coal per week. It's polluting not only the atmosphere but the West Coast of the United States. We should export the technology by investing in clean coal technology.

We should be creating jobs. John McCain has voted 20 times against funding alternative energy sources and thinks, I guess, the only answer is drill, drill, drill. Drill we must, but it will take 10 years for one drop of oil to come out of any of the wells that are going to begun to be drilled.

In the meantime, we're all going to be in real trouble.

EDIT: Oh, and no worries. I'm not really trying to rebut your statements, just trying to provide context. I was pretty sure Biden would kick Palin's ass before the debate even went down