Ugliness in Politics

[Arainach]

This blog post (http://www.americablog.com/2008/11/magnanimity-is-nice-but-lets-not-forget.html) sums up more eloquently than I could have a lot of what's been on my mind recently.I'm watching THE VIEW, and Joy Behar was talking about how last night McCain "finally came back to who he was." I.e., he's been kind of an ass for the past several months, and finally started to find his honor again. The token Republican countered with the following:

"I think it's hard because campaigns... really bring out the ugly in everyone on both sides. It's when you see them in their pure moments, Barack's speech last night, and John McCain's speech lsat night, that you see these moments of hope that they really have given us."

Horse shit.

After eight years of having Republicans call me an un-American troop-hating fag-loving socialist, after months of John McCain embracing the hate to a level where his own supporters were calling out for Barack Obama to be assassinated, no one is going to be permitted to tell me with a straight face that "oh you know, both sides do it."

Your side was abominable. Your side was hateful. Your side race-baited. Your side gay-baited. Your side lied like we've never seen in recent presidential campaign history. Your side used a tax-cheat who would do better under Obama's tax proposal to be your everyman on the issue of taxes. Your side, in a veiled effort at race-baiting, said Obama doesn't put his country first. Your side had the audacity to call Obama a socialist. Your side suggested he was a Muslim. Your side suggested he was a terrorist. Your side suggested he was Osama bin Laden.

Spare me the crap about how both sides do it. You people are a disgrace, you've been a disgrace for eight long years, and all your hate and lying and venom and vitriol finally bit you in your collective fat ass.

Democrats don't do nasty, and they certainly don't do it well. Lord knows I wish they did, but they don't. Republicans elevate it to a religion. You are the party of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity. Angry, bitchy, bitter and elitist. What do we have to compare? Jesse Jackson, I often hear from my Republican friends. Um, maybe in 1980 when he was relevant. It's been 28 years, got any other examples? Michael Moore, you say? What has Michael Moore said - name one thing - that's comparable to the filth that regularly issues forth from Limbaugh, Hannity and Coulter and, of late, McCain and Palin?

Democrats, when they skewer (which isn't often enough), do it with biting truth. Republicans skewer, early and often, with vicious lies. It goes back to a more general philosophy that liberals have: If we just tell them the truth, the people will agree with us. Republicans are far less sanguine. They know that a good lie beats the truth any day of the week.

Except on a Tuesday in November.Emphasis mine. What do you think? Is hate-filled politics equally spread across the spectrum or more concentrated in various groups?

[Z]

Of course it's spread evenly. Republicans and Democrats are just two heads of the same beast and if either truly believe they have ascended past trash talk in past elections, not only are they delusional but they may need to check that high horse they are on.

I mean, using one of the Blogger's own examples, you can't say that Moore, a man who made a documentary specifically to focus hate on Bush right before an election, is excused from scrutiny. You can't look past the fact that people like Dan Rather are willing to spotlight a fabricated story on a nationally televised special just to get a shot to try and snub Bush during his run against Kerry. Republicans and Democrats are both guilty parties.

It's politics. It's never pretty. Just the name of the game, unfortunately.

[Bloodcinder]

It's evenly split, although I feel that relatively to each other the Democrats are more bitter and spiteful and the Republicans are more ignorant and cocky. The hatred flows from both. I can assure you I receive more hatred from Democrats than from Republicans, and we all know what minority I belong to. It just so happens that people don't generally recognize the hatred when it is coming from the side they identify with.

[Arainach]

Z, give me a single Moore quote on par with any of the following:We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.

...

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.

...

While the form of treachery varies slightly from case to case, liberals always manage to take the position that most undermines American security."Would you kill someone for that?...I'm thinking about killing Michael Moore...I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,...No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out. Is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus -- band -- Do, and I've lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, 'Yeah, I'd kill Michael Moore,' and then I'd see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I'd realize, 'Oh, you wouldn't kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn't choke him to death.' And you know, well, I'm not sure."

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(To a Muslim Congressman) With that being said, you are a Democrat. You are saying, "Let`s cut and run." And I have to tell you, I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, "Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies. And I know you’re not. I’m not accusing you of being an enemy, but that’s the way I feel, and I think a lot of Americans will feel that way.

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You pinhead. You think we would actually be sitting here and saying "well, look at the way she was dressed?" If she were Joan McCain, stop it. You self-centered self-righteous socialist out of control dangerous man-hating bitch. Shut your mouth. We might have bought into this crap in the 1960s because too many people were doing LSD. We're not on LSD anymore -- we need to start making sense.(To a Black Caller) Take that bone out of your nose and call me back.

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Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?

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I mean, let's face it, we didn't have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I'm not saying we should bring it back; I'm just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark.

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I'm just watching Sen. "Dick Turban," ah, Dick Turban is doing his — from Illinois — he of Club G'itmo fame. Ha! I wish Roberts would have shown up in the Club G'itmo T-shirt today. Maybe, maybe a Club G'itmo java coffee cup, just for Dick Turban. Ah, but anyway, Dick Turban.

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He is exaggerating the effects of the disease. He's moving all around and shaking and it's purely an act... This is really shameless of Michael J Fox. Either he didn't take his medication or he's acting.Our opponent ... is someone who sees America, it seems, as being so imperfect, imperfect enough, that he's palling around with terrorists who would target their own country....This is not a man who sees America as you see America and as I see America.It's NOT the same.

[Z]

Are you honestly trying to make the case that democrats are void of dirty politics? Even you must know that you'd be kidding yourself with such a notion.

Or is the real claim that they're both dirty but republicans are more dirty because these three political commentators are politically commentating?

I mean, what's wrong with your Palin quote? Is it a slanderous lie? Did I miss the glaring evil with her saying that an emphasis on Change is also an emphasis on Dissatisfaction? Or was it the pointing out of Ayers who, indeed, attacked his own country?

You have to keep in mind, they're political commentators. People paid to politically rile up the masses.

[Killer_Man_]

And as I see it, supporters are like a religeon. The party is not horrible, it's the people.

Besides, I found Obama ads to be a bit unrealistic. Saying that McCain is like Bush. That's a slap to the face. Yes he might have agreed with Bush most of the time but that doesn't mean he's always going to be a 'Bush'.

[SpaceProg]

Politics and Religion. No wonder it's said never to speak of it if you want to make and keep friends. Those two topics have been and will ever continue to be the two most divisive subjects. Mostly because neither side will admit to being wrong about ___.

[Arainach]

Are you honestly trying to make the case that democrats are void of dirty politics? Even you must know that you'd be kidding yourself with such a notion.

Or is the real claim that they're both dirty but republicans are more dirty because these three political commentators are politically commentating?The Democrats' most offensive statements are crude but based in fact. The Republicans regularly rely on ad hominem attacks and outright fabrications (Joe the Plumber, anyone?), as well as playing to fear and hatred (Osama/Hussein).

One need look only at the end of the election. Obama thanked McCain in his speech; the crowd cheered. McCain mentioned Obama and the crowd booed. Obama's supporters weren't calling for the assasination of McCain or calling McCain and his supporters fascists. Their discourse was an order of magnitude more civil.

[chefTENGU]

I feel it's pretty evenly split. Plus, as ugly as things are today, they were much worse back in the day.

The lady they had on the Daily Show the night before election day (a presidential historian with a new book) had some prime examples.

John Adams's camp used to refer to Thomas Jefferson as a "howling atheist," and the Jeffersonians countered by calling Adams a "howling hermaphrodite." Also, one Connecticut newspaper made the assertion that if Jefferson was ever elected, rape, incest, and the like would be taught in school. They later apologized to Jefferson for their slanders... in 1993.

[Z]

Go check out YouTube and search Obama supporters vs McCain supporters. You'll find the results for both are quite embarrassing.

There are Republicans that are retarded and racist and hate-filled. But there are, of course, Democrats and Independents who match the same criteria. I think there is a misconception that minorities can't be seen as racist when they absolutely can. Democrats come from all sorts of financial backgrounds and, that fact in mind, there are obviously some who are ignorant. I'm sure you saw the video where the girl claims Obama is going to pay for her gas and mortgage.

There is no better or worse, only different.

[Arainach]

I'm sure you saw the video where the girl claims Obama is going to pay for her gas and mortgage.Thinking your candidate will give you free stuff is TOTALLY the same as calling for the opposition to be assasinated or saying that he's a terrorist.

I'm not talking about retarded supporters - every politician has those. I'm talking about the kinds of ads that various parties base their entire campaigns on and the kinds of behaviors they tolerate and encourage in their supporters.

[Z]

I think it was Revery who posted the video of one of his supporters telling McCain that Obama was a terrorist and an Arab and McCain specifically correcting her saying that he wasn't and that he was a good family man with just a differing opinion about how to run things.

Obviously every individual supporter can't be saved from their own stupidity.

[Arainach]

Let's look at that little Dialogue:

Later, another supporter told McCain, "I don't trust Obama...He's an Arab."

McCain stood shaking his head as she spoke, then quickly took the microphone from her.

"No, ma'am," he said. "He's a decent, family man, a citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with."The correct response, as Colin Powell later pointed out, is "so what if he is an Arab?" McCain knowingly allows racism to foster in his base.

Not to mention stories like this (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53791.html). If you look hard enough in the Obama base, you can find hatred. Usually you'll just get people saying stupid things like 'he'll pay my mortgage', but stupidity is not hatred and filth. The hatred was blatant in the entire crowd at McCain rallies. I know since I was at one here in Michigan.

[Z]

Lawl. Fucked if he does, fucked if he doesn't.

Did you honestly expect McCain to jump into an ethical discussion about race relations, civil rights, and the equality of others when the supporter was obviously retarded? Why is it not acceptable to just correct the woman with the facts and credit his opponent with the respect his opponent deserves?

[Arainach]

If someone says 'He's a _____ and I don't trust him", the correct response is not "You can trust him", it's "you shouldn't stereotype".

Also, you never did address my point - I'm waiting for a single quote from a high-profile liberal politician or commentator on par with the filth spewed out by Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, etc.

[Z]

It doesn't make sense, Ary. If a woman says Obama is an Arab, the correct answer isn't "So what if he's an arab" He's not! That said, McCain corrected her and has asked her and the rest of his constituents to respect him multiple times.

I grant you that the most ideal response attained from hindsight would have included a racial equality discussion but the product without the discussion was not hate-filled or slanderous by any means and it couldn't can't be seen as something fueling racial discrimination.

As far as the quotes, I didn't give you one because I assumed you correctly assumed that there are some I could get, instead of making me take the time to enable the mudslinging. Hell, I can do a search of old threads for that matter and come up with a few such as the video of the two democrats getting excited over the fact that a tropical storm hit and, among being a danger for the people, ruined McCain's rally. Or that Michael Moore thinks, and has stated, that Americans are the dumbest people on the planet.

I just thought it was already a given.

But, I also defer back to the idea that your talking about content from political commentators. If it weren't for political correctness, their occupations would be called "Shit stirrers". It's what they do. It's what Moore does. It's what other loudly opinioned Liberals and Conservatives do when they want to be heard.

[Z]

As a general statement (because I don't wish to go further into this Democrats vs Republicans microdebate) I think political ugliness is fueled most by those who want to highlight the dividing line between the parties and that includes Republicans and those commentators mentioned.

Take UEF as an example and 'Remember UEF' as Exhibit A. Prior, there were small, quiet tensions. Then the thread hit, the divide was drawn out for all to see, and people took sides and attacked eachother, those small tensions turning into big ones.

[Bloodcinder]

My two cents right now (before Obama can redistribute them) constitute the idea that Ary is refusing to accept reality.

[Arainach]

As far as the quotes, I didn't give you one because I assumed you correctly assumed that there are some I could get, instead of making me take the time to enable the mudslinging. Hell, I can do a search of old threads for that matter and come up with a few such as the video of the two democrats getting excited over the fact that a tropical storm hit and, among being a danger for the people, ruined McCain's rally.I'd love to see the quote.Or that Michael Moore thinks, and has stated, that Americans are the dumbest people on the planet.Empirical evidence tends to support that, at least in terms of affairs outside of America. The rest of the world is considerably more aware of things than we are.

littlegirllost, I still don't know who you are, except that your main contributions to political threads here thus far have been idealistic things of 'gee, I couldn't possibly believe that the McCain campaign is doing <something there's blatant evidence of the McCain committee doing>' a few times.

[Z]

I think you've missed the point, Ary, but fine:

"I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease.... He is an absolutely reprehensible person.”
-- USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, Nov. 4, 1994, on PBS’s “To the Contrary.”

Host Bill O’Reilly: “Do you think President Clinton’s an honest man?”
Dan Rather: “Yes, I think he’s an honest man.... I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things.”
-- Exchange on Fox News’s “The O’Reilly Factor,” May 15, 2001.

"If there is...justice, he'll get AIDS, or one of his grandchildren will get it."
--National Public Radio's (NPR) Nina Totenberg on Sen. Jesse Helms

"I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."
--Lyndon B. Johnson

"We don't give a shit about what you have to say."
--Gloria Steinem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem), as she turned off the microphone when feminist Camille Paglia tried to voice a dissenting opinion

"Suck my dick, you stupid nigger. Shut the ***** up, and get your black ass out of here, nigger!"
--"Reverend" Jesse Jackson and his gang of thugs to Black conservative J. L. Peterson, when he tried to speak at an L.A. Trade Bureau Forum meeting. (Mr. Peterson is currently suing "Rev." Jackson for -- among other charges -- assault and battery, as he was also physically attacked.)




I assure you, there's plenty more. Like I said, if you believe there isn't, you're just kidding yourself.
Also, like I said, the quotes are not the point. The point is that it takes two to dance. No one party is innocent.

[Seegtease]

It's equal on both sides. Ary, you're just so far left that you cannot see the attacks they do because you believe they aren't "attacks", they are "truth", which is "okay". Somebody extremely to the right would do the same. Both sides are full of lies and shit-flinging. A person is just more likely to agree that their side is "nicer" because they believe they aren't lying.

Myself, not adamantly supporting either party, can clearly see that both are just as vicious. In fact, your stubbornness on this issue is counterproductive to your argument.

[Arainach]

I think you've missed the point, Ary, but fine:

"I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease.... He is an absolutely reprehensible person.”
-- USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, Nov. 4, 1994, on PBS’s “To the Contrary.”

Host Bill O’Reilly: “Do you think President Clinton’s an honest man?”
Dan Rather: “Yes, I think he’s an honest man.... I think you can be an honest person and lie about any number of things.”
-- Exchange on Fox News’s “The O’Reilly Factor,” May 15, 2001.

"If there is...justice, he'll get AIDS, or one of his grandchildren will get it."
--National Public Radio's (NPR) Nina Totenberg on Sen. Jesse Helms

"I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years."
--Lyndon B. Johnson

"We don't give a shit about what you have to say."
--Gloria Steinem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem), as she turned off the microphone when feminist Camille Paglia tried to voice a dissenting opinion

"Suck my dick, you stupid nigger. Shut the ***** up, and get your black ass out of here, nigger!"
--"Reverend" Jesse Jackson and his gang of thugs to Black conservative J. L. Peterson, when he tried to speak at an L.A. Trade Bureau Forum meeting. (Mr. Peterson is currently suing "Rev." Jackson for -- among other charges -- assault and battery, as he was also physically attacked.)




I assure you, there's plenty more. Like I said, if you believe there isn't, you're just kidding yourself.
Also, like I said, the quotes are not the point. The point is that it takes two to dance. No one party is innocent.Once again, however, all of those are minor people (yes, even Jesse Jackson, who hasn't been relevant in 20 years). O'Reilly, Coulter, et. al have viewship in the millions. They ARE the voice of the neoconservative/Republican movement. Plus, the Jackson, Totenburg, and Malveaux quotes are genuinely reprehensible and of a comparable level, except that I've never heard of 2 of those 3 people before and the third, as has been said many times, is Jesse Jackson, who no one's actually listened to in forever. The LBJ quote....that's, what, 40+ years old now? His statement wasn't nearly as offensive when he said it as it would be nowadays. The rest may be ugly statements, but they're not hateful or vile by any stretch.

[Killer_Man_]

It doesn't even matter if it's minor, it -still happens.- I got flyers that went against Obama and McCain in the mail. All the commercials were attacks against each other. I'm sick of seeing attacks.

The ads that support the politician should speak about them, not the other person running against them.

[Arainach]

I'm not denying that Obama ran a few attack ads, but the ones that got the most airtime by far here in MI were the ones that consisted solely of Obama talking to the camera about his economic plan. And then there's his half-hour of prime airtime a week before the election in which he didn't mention McCain once.

It was an interesting campaign season; all the McCain ads (before he pulled out) were about Obama and most of the Obama ads were about Obama. I barely ever heard about McCain.

[Killer_Man_]

All the ones I saw was that Obama was a socialist who wanted to spread the wealth and about 'joe the plumber'. The McCain ones was really comparing him to Bush and trying to say he's a retard blah blah blah blah.