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Gio Takahashi
01-14-2009, 15:56
Justices Say Evidence Is Valid Despite Police Error

By DAVID STOUT (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/david_stout/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
WASHINGTON ? The Supreme Court (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/supreme_court/index.html?inline=nyt-org) on Wednesday upheld the conviction of an Alabama man on drug and weapons charges, emphasizing that the exclusionary rule, which generally bars prosecutors from using evidence obtained by the police through improper searches, is far from absolute.
In a 5-to-4 opinion, the court upheld the federal conviction of Bennie Dean Herring, who from the court records appears to have been very unlucky as well as felonious in his conduct. In upholding the conviction, the court?s majority came to a conclusion that will most likely please those who complain about criminals going free on ?technicalities? and alarm those who fear that the high court is looking for ways to narrow the reach of the exclusionary rule.


Mr. Herring had gone to the Coffee County, Ala., sheriff?s department on July 7, 2004, to retrieve something from his truck, which had been impounded. ?Herring was no stranger to law enforcement,? as Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/john_g_jr_roberts/index.html?inline=nyt-per) observed dryly in his opinion for the court.
And he was no stranger to Mark Anderson, an investigator for the sheriff?s department, who asked a Coffee County clerk if there were any outstanding warrants for Mr. Herring.


No, Mr. Anderson was told. So he asked the clerk to check with her counterpart in neighboring Dale County, who turned up a warrant against Mr. Herring for failing to appear in court on a felony charge.


Mr. Anderson and a deputy following Mr. Herring as he left the impound lot pulled him over and arrested him. A search turned up methamphetamine in his pocket and a pistol, which Mr. Herring could not legally possess because of an earlier felony conviction, in his truck.



Within minutes, however, the Dale County clerk discovered that the warrant against Mr. Herring had been withdrawn five months earlier and had been left in the computer system by mistake. The clerk immediately called Mr. Anderson, but Mr. Herring had already been taken into custody.
Was Mr. Herring entitled to go free because the officers lacked probable cause and there was no dispute that both the arrest and subsequent search were unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment? No, the Supreme Court ruled.



?When police mistakes leading to an unlawful search are the result of isolated negligence attenuated from the search, rather than systemic error or reckless disregard of constitutional requirements, the exclusionary rule does not apply,? Chief Justice Roberts wrote in an opinion joined by Justices Antonin Scalia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/antonin_scalia/index.html?inline=nyt-per), Anthony M. Kennedy (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/anthony_m_kennedy/index.html?inline=nyt-per), Clarence Thomas (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/clarence_thomas/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Samuel A. Alito Jr. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/samuel_a_alito_jr/index.html?inline=nyt-per)



?We do not suggest that all recordkeeping errors by the police are immune from the exclusionary rule,? the majority noted. But the justices said the official errors in the Herring case do not compare with the kind of egregious and deliberate police misconduct that gave rise to the exclusionary rule in the first place.


Deciding when to throw out evidence under the exclusionary rule is a balancing act, the majority said. Is the official misconduct serious enough that the evidence should be disallowed to deter future misconduct, even if criminals sometimes go free?


Not in Mr. Herring?s case, the majority ruled, upholding findings by a federal district court and the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.
Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/ruth_bader_ginsburg/index.html?inline=nyt-per), John Paul Stevens (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/john_paul_stevens/index.html?inline=nyt-per), David H. Souter (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/david_h_souter/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Stephen G. Breyer (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/stephen_g_breyer/index.html?inline=nyt-per) dissented. ?In my view, the court?s opinion underestimates the need for a forceful exclusionary rule and the gravity of recordkeeping errors in the law enforcement,? Justice Ginsburg wrote.
But in the majority opinion, the chief justice wrote that the exclusionary rule ?is not an individual right and applies only where its deterrent effect outweighs the substantial cost of letting guilty and possibly dangerous defendants go free.?


At another point, Chief Justice Roberts wrote that ?the very phrase ?probable cause? confirms that the Fourth Amendment does not demand all possible precision.?


The dissenters were unpersuaded, however. ?Negligent recordkeeping errors by law enforcement threaten individual liberty, are susceptible to deterrence by the exclusionary rule, and cannot be remedied effectively through other means,? Justice Ginsburg wrote.


Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/15/washington/15scotus.html?_r=1&ref=us)

deathofcheese
01-14-2009, 17:31
Oh boy. There goes privacy. Now that there's a precedent for it, I'm pretty sure you can expect to see "whoops, turns out we didn't actually have legal reason to search you/your house/your possessions. but, since we searched you anyways, we'll go ahead and prosecute you, even though it was an illegal search." in the future.

Seegtease
01-14-2009, 17:36
In upholding the conviction, the court’s majority came to a conclusion that will most likely please those who complain about criminals going free on “technicalities” and alarm those who fear that the high court is looking for ways to narrow the reach of the exclusionary rule.

I've always thought getting away with crimes on technicalities and loopholes was pretty awful, even if normally it is constitutional to do so. I can see the reason for an exception in this case, and I'm glad they did.

Arainach
01-14-2009, 18:34
This is absolutely hideous.Now that there's a precedent for it, I'm pretty sure you can expect to see "whoops, turns out we didn't actually have legal reason to search you/your house/your possessions. but, since we searched you anyways, we'll go ahead and prosecute you, even though it was an illegal search." in the future. ESPECIALLY since no law officer is ever held accountable for anything they do - hell, even shoving a store greeter over and pushing a customer through a glass window for no reason (http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_141946.asp) isn't enough to get them kicked off, so a false search is nothing.

Gio Takahashi
01-14-2009, 22:48
I read an article from college newspaper about a similar thing. Some cop was restraining a kid, accidentally shot the kid, which ricocheted off the ground, killing the kid. the cop didn't even have a reason to arrest him in the first place.

Arainach
01-14-2009, 23:10
My question to Seeg is this:

We are now at a point where, in any number of examples (I can provide piles and piles of links upon request) the police are not held responsible for their actions. Their powers have been greatly expanded to the point where they are able to do essentially whatever they want without fear of consequence. How is this different from a police state, and if you believe that this is not a police state, what separates us from a police state?

Seegtease
01-15-2009, 01:31
I agree that they are getting to the point where they can get away with too much, so I'm not going to argue that.

I guess my dilemma is that I want to see police following the laws they are given, but I also don't want to see criminals (we know they are due to evidence, but we just can't use said evidence) no longer getting loose through loopholes. I wish there was some better way to handle situations like that. Not that I have any clue what it is.

As for the case...

I mean if I'm reading the article right, the officer believed he did have a valid warrant; he did not realize it was expired. So he took evidence and later found out his warrant was no good. Well, now even if he got a real warrant, the odds of him finding more incriminating evidence has dwindled down significantly, so the guy would get away scott-free. I'm also inclined to believe that if he had known it was expired, and tried to renew it, or whatever is it they have to do, he would have been successful.

So should they use evidence that he accidentally acquired that he could have probably acquired anyway if he had been a little more careful with the warrant and make sure he had a valid one, or should they not and ruin their chances of ever having anything on him again?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all against search and seizure without a warrant under any circumstances, but it seems to me this one instance could allow a little flexibility.

Arainach
01-15-2009, 08:53
No one likes seeing criminals get away on loopholes. But at the end of the day, I'd rather see 10 criminals get away on technicalities than have one innocent person thrown in jail. In my opinion, the system would be far better that way.

Seegtease
01-15-2009, 17:45
I don't see how an illegal search means an innocent person will go to jail. Sure, the search was illegal (and wrong and police should not knowingly do this, obviously), but just because the search was illegal doesn't mean the person was innocent, it just means they were "found out" in a very poor (and illegal) manner. The guy still had the illegal stuff on him, even if the search was not supposed to be allowed. Whether or not the search was allowed doesn't change the fact that he was breaking the law. So again, I'm not sure what this has to do with jailing innocents.

Arainach
01-15-2009, 20:04
Put another way, I would rather see a million criminals go free on technicalities than to just let the police search wherever and whatever they want and get away with a "oops, we made a tiny little mistake" and no other consequences

deathofcheese
01-15-2009, 20:37
OK, say you were driving home with a bottle of wine in your car. Or a bottle of liquor. This is a previously opened bottle from a different occasion (you were NOT drinking before you started driving), and, not thinking, you put it in your clothes duffel in your back seat. You drive home, obeying the speed limit and otherwise driving responsibly, with no notable incidents. Up ahead, a cop is waiting in a speed trap, and takes down your license plate for a random check. Whoops, turns out there's still a warrant for your arrest for a hit and run that's been wrongly associated with your plate number because it was one character off from the real offender, but it was misread when it was entered into the computer. So the cop pulls you over and initiates an identity check. While you're waiting for that to come back, he figures he's in the right and searches your car and finds the open (though capped) bottle of alcohol. Since this is illegal (it is in SC, unless it's in your trunk, which I'm basing this situation off of), he puts you under arrest for violating the open container law. However, just before he places you in custody, someone radios back and says "wait, this isn't the right guy. he's actually off the hook." Oops, too late, you've already been discovered carrying an open container, so you're going to jail, even though it was an illegal search and something that would have otherwise been glanced over.

Seegtease
01-16-2009, 00:45
SE: So? I'm pretty sure cops searching your car happens all the time, usually if they have probable cause. In your example, he only thought he was allowed to, but wasn't. However, he was still breaking the law. Just because the officer made a mistake doesn't mean he should just ignore a crime he knows is happening.

Since we're making up scenarios, what if, instead of alcohol, he found a dead body in your car? "Oh, I wasn't supposed to search. I'll just pretend I didn't see that." I don't think so.

Put another way, I would rather see a million criminals go free on technicalities than to just let the police search wherever and whatever they want and get away with a "oops, we made a tiny little mistake" and no other consequences

Doesn't this seem a little unreasonable to you? Statistically speaking, by your hyperbole (though I don't think you meant it to be hyperbole), a million criminals released on technicalities will almost surely contain at least 1 criminal that will murder another human being. But probably more. So you'd rather not let an officer search you than let one or a few murderous criminals out to continue their crimes?

I know that sounds extreme, but the dramatic statement you made immediately brought that obvious reality to mind.

Arainach
01-16-2009, 08:42
Just because the officer made a mistake doesn't mean he should just ignore a crime he knows is happeningHe doesn't have to ignore it. He has to discard any evidence found while making that mistake. If he wants to pursue the crime he now knows about, he has to find a legitamite way to obtain evidence.Doesn't this seem a little unreasonable to you? Statistically speaking, by your hyperbole (though I don't think you meant it to be hyperbole), a million criminals released on technicalities will almost surely contain at least 1 criminal that will murder another human being. But probably more. So you'd rather not let an officer search you than let one or a few murderous criminals out to continue their crimes?Wrong comparison. I'd rather not let an officer search ANYONE AND EVERYONE than let a few murderous criminals out.

Seegtease
01-16-2009, 13:39
I feel the reasonable way to handle it should vary on the severity of the crime. For example, if an illegal search led to evidence about something small, like possession of illegal drugs, the evidence should be dismissed and the officer fined (or some other adequate punishment). If the illegal search led to evidence proving that somebody is a murderer, that might be a little more important. I think it'd be recklessly endangering human lives to have proof to convict a murderer and not use it to jail the criminal.

That way, if a police officer does an illegal search, they better be certain they will find evidence for something severe, or they're going to be in deep crap. I think it'd be enough to deter illegal searches without letting the really bad criminals free on technicalities.

Arainach
01-16-2009, 14:57
Severity of the crime doesn't matter. Because if it's allowed in ANY instances, it will lead to massive police abuse on the mere assumption that they might find anything, which is totally unacceptable. The point of the exclusionary rule is that the fourth amendment is so important that under NO circumstances is it acceptable to search without a valid warrant.

And your second point is wrong and you KNOW it. If cops aren't getting punished for driving drunk and shoving people through windows, why would they get punished for an illegal search?

Seegtease
01-16-2009, 17:01
Just because they aren't being punished doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Obviously, if they won't be punished, that throws my whole argument out the window. The idea I proposed would only work if there were enforced punishments, otherwise there would be no deterrent to random searches. And if there WERE punishments, police wouldn't go searching all the time because they "think" something is there, because the risk for them is too high.

But the whole idea rides on the fact that there WOULD be punishments.

deathofcheese
01-16-2009, 22:26
What a nice old relic our Constitution has become if we can merely throw out things like Fourth Amendment in favor of finding crime wherever we can.