Athiest's sign taken from captial building

[Killer_Man_]

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/12/05/atheists.christmas/

I found this link when they mentioned that the same organization is getting prayer day removed...

Regardless, I found the news thing funny and the comments even funnier. Just because of the sheer fact that, can you blame someone from not taking that sign? I mean, if it didn't bash religion, any religion. I think the sign would be just fine. Everyone should be able to express their belief or non-belief of whatever. And then I found out that this organization is within Wisconsin. Which made me facepalm even more. They said we bombard them with our religious signs, 'propaganda' and other things that offends them. Hell, look at one of the ads in the bus from the pics. I mean seriously, how can you not expect normal people NOT to be pissed? Even some atheists dislike the sign too.

[Seegtease]

"When people ask us, 'Why are you hateful? Why are you putting up something critical of people's holidays? -- we respond that we kind of feel that the Christian message is the hate message," he said. "On that Nativity scene, there is this threat of internal violence if we don't submit to that master. Hate speech goes both ways."

We're not Islam. The ignorant statements that many atheists seem to spout out never ceases to astound me. Everybody reasonable knows these guys are just trying to stir up problems, and disguise themselves as "advocates for freedom" or some other nonsense.

[deathofcheese]

The first line or two were ok. Then it went all "RAWR WE HATE RELIGION" which, while being a valid viewpoint, I think is hardly appropriate for display next to a religious display.

[Killer_Man_]

"Most people think December is for Christians and view our signs as an intrusion, when actually it's the other way around," he said. "People have been celebrating the winter solstice long before Christmas. We see Christianity as the intruder, trying to steal the holiday from all of us humans."

Last time I checked no one cares about what Christmas means anymore. Most think it's about Christ but to the common man or kid. All they care about is Santa and gifts.

[chefTENGU]

The first line or two were ok. Then it went all "RAWR WE HATE RELIGION" which, while being a valid viewpoint, I think is hardly appropriate for display next to a religious display.
This.

Going out of your way to preach your spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof) during someone else's holiday is just asking for trouble. Of course, people of faith need to know their own limits, too. It's just common courtesy.

[Arainach]

We're not Islam. The ignorant statements that many atheists seem to spout out never ceases to astound me.Irony meter exploding here.

Was the sign excessive and in bad taste? Yes. That's still no justification for theft.

[Killer_Man_]

Irony meter exploding here.

Was the sign excessive and in bad taste? Yes. That's still no justification for theft.

And what about those who steal baby Jesus every year? I mean seriously there is about 20 thefts a year from people's HOMES.

And Ary, since when is the last time that there was a crusade for Christianity? I mean sure, there has been a lot of wars for religion but the only one causing the most problems nowadays is Islam. I mean look at the killing of that one guy in Europe for drawing Muhamed(sp?).

Hell, if I had the guts to, I would have defame or stolen that sign too.

[Seegtease]

I never attempted to justify theft. I just think the atheists have very poor understanding of the basic facets of Christianity.

They could have put a larger sign in front of the other sign, rather than stealing it.

[Arainach]

And Ary, since when is the last time that there was a crusade for Christianity? I mean sure, there has been a lot of wars for religion but the only one causing the most problems nowadays is Islam. I mean look at the killing of that one guy in Europe for drawing Muhamed(sp?).Individual extreme views not held by the majority (or even a large minority) of muslims. Would you care to have me quote statistics on abortion clinic bombings, murders of doctors, and hate crimes against homosexuals? In fact, in my day-to-day life here in America I have many more Christians trying to impose their beliefs on me through billboards, bumper stickers, legislation, protest signs, yelling at me, etc. than Muslims.

My irony point was how hilarious it was to condemn Atheists for stereotyping Christians as the same post stereotyped Muslims.

[SpaceProg]

I think it'd be just dandy if we kept religion out of our conversations and left it to be a personal private thing one has between God (or whatever deity(s) they may believe in) and their fellow churchgoers... but of course it goes against the whole 'spread the gospel' thing, so... blah.

People would get on a lot better, is all.

[Seegtease]

My irony point was how hilarious it was to condemn Atheists for stereotyping Christians as the same post stereotyped Muslims.

It's not a stereotype if their very codes states specifically how to behave. It's provable fact. The Bible, more specifically, the New Testament advocates love and grace. That's the basics of behaving like Christ.

The Quoran teaches nothing of that sort, and in fact, by the book, a violent religion. There's no assumptions or stereotypes to be made, I'm just looking at the core of beliefs.

Not all Christians behave in good accordance, but that doesn't present an inherent flaw in the faith. It just displays an inherent flaw in human nature (which the Bible conveys time and time again).

A lot of Muslims are peaceful, sure. I just maintain that by being that way, they aren't holding to their faith very strongly. If a Christian were to hold strongly and properly to their own faith, they would be pleasant people.

[Arainach]

Oh, really?Matthew 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:18&version=NIV)

18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-11&version=NIV)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.Exodus 35:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2035:2&version=NIV)

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.I could go on all day. Say what you want about New Testament versus Old, but in the Sermon on the Mount (first verse I quoted you) Jesus said the old law is here to say. The point is that both religions advocate peace at some parts and violence at others. To pretend otherwise is raw hypocrisy.

[Killer_Man_]

I think the Old Testiment is silly for the most part...

And are you sure by the 'Law' that he didn't mean the ten commandments? I mean the LAW could very mean anything.

[chefTENGU]

The Quoran teaches nothing of that sort, and in fact, by the book, a violent religion. There's no assumptions or stereotypes to be made, I'm just looking at the core of beliefs.

...

A lot of Muslims are peaceful, sure. I just maintain that by being that way, they aren't holding to their faith very strongly.
I don't even know where to begin.

Seeing how you must have read the Qur'an in order to make such sweeping statements, could you please enlighten the rest of us by showing exactly where it defines Islam as a religion of violence and tells muslims to reject peace?

[Killer_Man_]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060914001306AA3aptj

http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9801&CATE=1403

http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/21

http://www.twf.org/Library/Violence.html

-----------

Some say yes, some say no. That is just off a google search.

Though some say that infidel defination even states it's one who does not believe in a higher being.

[Seegtease]

To bring out some of the quotes in the links KM provided:

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

I don't have much else to say about those except verses like these are the main reasons we have terrorist bombings by those with Islamic beliefs. There's nothing in the Bible to encourage such behavior today (and the Bible doesn't support abortion clinic shootings, either).

As for the verse in Matthew you cited, there's a strong theological reason that we no longer enact the old testament punishments. The short explanation is that the sacrifice on the cross made by Jesus was enough to atone for and remove the need for any punishment by death for sins, because they've already been paid for. This idea is further reinforced by Jesus Himself showing Mercy to someone who, by Old Testament rules, would have been killed:

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Now very early in the morning, he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him. He sat down, and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman taken in adultery. Having set her in the midst, 4 they told him, "Teacher, we found this woman in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now in our law, Moses commanded us to stone such. What then do you say about her?" 6 They said this testing him, that they might have something to accuse him of. But Jesus stooped down, and wrote on the ground with his finger. 7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. 9 They, when they heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest, even to the last. Jesus was left alone with the woman where she was, in the middle. 10 Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, "Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."

The only one who was eligible to stone her (Jesus) did not, which makes a pretty emphatic statement that the death penalty rules of the old testament need not apply anymore, since Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. If you take the context of the verse you linked, it mentions fulfillment of the old covenant. The idea is that it's not nullified, but conditions have been met so that the punishments are no longer necessary. It's mercy and grace, which is the behavior Jesus exhibited, and what we are supposed to mimic.

[Tiger]

If all that in the Old Testament is nul because of Jesus Christians need to stop quoting other parts of the OT to justify their hate.

[chefTENGU]

I don't have much else to say about those except verses like these are the main reasons we have terrorist bombings by those with Islamic beliefs. ...

As for the verse in Matthew you cited, there's a strong theological reason that we no longer enact the old testament punishments.
Oh yeah, I forgot. Christianity is a religion steeped in a centuries-old tradition of theological study and is possessed of a Bible which is complex and grows in depth as Christians gain a better understanding over time of the revelations therein, whereas Islam has nothing of the sort. Right.

There's nothing in the Bible to encourage such behavior today (and the Bible doesn't support abortion clinic shootings, either).
That's funny, because despite that fact, people still use the Bible to justify such behavior. Wait, did I say "funny"? I meant "incredibly sad".

Why is it that we blame the criminal when a christian does something horrible and justifies it using their faith, but when a muslim does the exact same thing we blame the religion as a whole?

Remember, any outsider could have read the passages in the Bible which advocate killing your kids if they're disobedient, killing gay people for being abhorrent to nature, or cutting off parts of your body if they give you occasion to sin, and reach the conclusion that Christianity is a bloody and violent religion which exhorts its followers to commit such acts for the sake of a vengeful and angry God.

That outsider would be wrong, of course. Why then are we to accept outsiders' views of Islam as being essentially correct?

[Killer_Man_]

And this is why I do not go to church anymore because all the Bible says is I have to try to behave myself, believe in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and talk to him/read the Bible.

[deathofcheese]

The whole "quoting verse" thing has always been silly to me. Pretty much anything can be taken out of context (or not, in some cases) to add support to whatever it is you want to say, whether that be in or against the spirit or topic of what it was originally meant for, or even if it has anything to do with the topic at hand. When people start quoting verse, all I hear is a bigger-dick competition with who has wasted more of their life memorizing lines of a book or who's the savvier verse-searcher.

That said, I've always had an idea to read the Qur'an because I don't really know that much about Islam (factual or otherwise) and I've heard that it's more enjoyable to read than the Christian Bible and Jewish whatever-book. But I can't bring myself to do it for fear of being a hypocrite: I've never read the Bible, even when I was in church. I've had parts of it read to me and I'm familiar with parts of it (mostly the stories, not really the book; man am I a sucker for a good story), but I've never felt the (masochistic) need to sit down and read it cover to cover.

Having been raised Christian and living in a mostly-Christian country, I'm pretty familiar with the Bible, but the only thing I know about the Qur'an is what I've heard from others. For example, lots of people claim that the Qur'an calls on all Muslims to go forth and kill infidels, heretics, and one-of-these-is-not-like-the-others. Conversely, some Muslims and Islam scholars (particularly the nonviolent ones) claim that the Qur'an is a peaceful book that's no more militant than the Christian Bible. In all likelihood, the Qur'an could be just like the Bible in its calls for violence, but people might gloss over that because they have an opinion and want to convince you of it. I don't know and I'd like to find out for myself, but it will likely never happen. Maybe I should add reading both to my bucket list of things to do before I'm allowed to die, so that I can live forever if I never accomplish both.

But that rant's neither here nor there 'cause this is a topic about hard-hitting atheistic signs being inappropriately placed next to hopefully-tasteful Christian Christmas displays.

[Seegtease]

If all that in the Old Testament is nul because of Jesus Christians need to stop quoting other parts of the OT to justify their hate.

It's not null, but people should stop doing that anyways.

Why is it that we blame the criminal when a christian does something horrible and justifies it using their faith, but when a muslim does the exact same thing we blame the religion as a whole?

Actually, in my experience, the latter part really applies to both. People always blame a religion for the actions of bad apples. Can you honestly me that there are not a substantial amount of people who use an abortion clinic shooting as assault against Christianity in general?

Maybe my observations are off, but there are a far greater percentage of Muslims who participate in "killing infidels" than percentage of Christians who "kill sinners". A few bad apples are one thing, but I'm pretty sure the violent Muslims make up a fairly substantial group, not to mention the kind of tyrannical government it can produce. I was listening on the radio this morning about some kids who saw a Muslim banner fallen because of a storm, and turned it in to an official, and they were arrested and accused of desecration. Maybe it could be written off as an isolated incident, but it's just an example of the kind of government that extremist Islam can produce, and it's widespread enough to not just be a couple of guys misrepresenting their faith.

Remember, any outsider could have read the passages in the Bible which advocate killing your kids if they're disobedient, killing gay people for being abhorrent to nature, or cutting off parts of your body if they give you occasion to sin, and reach the conclusion that Christianity is a bloody and violent religion which exhorts its followers to commit such acts for the sake of a vengeful and angry God.

The Bible, in my opinion, is a more complicated book. I hold that stance because of the two separate testaments, and the old testament has to be read in light of the new, which adds a whole new layer of complexity. You can read something in the OT, and see later that it was part of the Mosaic Covenant, which has since been fulfilled. As far as I know, there's nothing like that in the Quran, which means it can be taken at more face value.

[Arainach]

Maybe my observations are off, but there are a far greater percentage of Muslims who participate in "killing infidels" than percentage of Christians who "kill sinners".Fun fact: Arabs only account for 20% of Muslims., and the vast majority of Arabic Muslims don't participate in such things either.

[Killer_Man_]

Fun fact: Arabs only account for 20% of Muslims., and the vast majority of Arabic Muslims don't participate in such things either.

Link to proof?

[Seegtease]

Ary, of course it's going to be a small percent. Bombing places and killing people is generally illegal, that's enough to deter most people. I wouldn't expect it to be a terribly large amount.

My point is that whatever the percent of violent Muslims is, I strongly suspect the number is quite larger than violent Christians.

[Arainach]

Link to proof?http://pewforum.org/Mapping-the-Global-Muslim-Population.aspx

[chefTENGU]

It's easy enough to prove that Arabs only account for 20% of the world's muslims (as soon as you remember groups like Turks, Kurds, Persians, central Asian peoples like Tajiks, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, etc.), Afghan peoples, Pakistanis, a sizeable minority of Indians, Indonesians, Albanians, Berbers and other non-Arab north African peoples, and a metric fuck-ton of people across sub-Saharan Africa (too many to name).

I figured he was waiting for some link to prove these people aren't terrorists as well, which is about as easy as proving that any given person has never done X activity ever.

[Seegtease]

Of course, the Canadian Muslims are the real terrorists.

[Killer_Man_]

It's easy enough to prove that Arabs only account for 20% of the world's muslims (as soon as you remember groups like Turks, Kurds, Persians, central Asian peoples like Tajiks, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, etc.), Afghan peoples, Pakistanis, a sizeable minority of Indians, Indonesians, Albanians, Berbers and other non-Arab north African peoples, and a metric fuck-ton of people across sub-Saharan Africa (too many to name).

I figured he was waiting for some link to prove these people aren't terrorists as well, which is about as easy as proving that any given person has never done X activity ever.

Oh no, I know Muslims aren't violent just the extreme ones, much like Christianity. I Just wanted to see the population graph. xD

[Tiger]

The Bible, in my opinion, is a more complicated book. I hold that stance because of the two separate testaments, and the old testament has to be read in light of the new, which adds a whole new layer of complexity. You can read something in the OT, and see later that it was part of the Mosaic Covenant, which has since been fulfilled. As far as I know, there's nothing like that in the Quran, which means it can be taken at more face value.

Actually the Quran is an addition to the Torah, Old and New Testiment just like the New Tes is an addition to the Old. All are the "books of "god"" just to Islam the Quran is the ultimate in correctness.

Not saying I'm some kind of expert but I've read books on Islam and just returned from a moderate Muslim country. I attempted to read the Quran but i just couldn't, it was more mind numbing than trying to read King James bibles... I just can't handle the wording.

[chefTENGU]

That's the hilarious thing about all this inter-faith tension. We're all worshipping the same God.

Like Tiger, I hasten to add that I'm no expert on these matters myself, but Islam has a lot of respect for both Judaism and Christianity and reveres a lot of the same figures (such as Adam, Abraham, and Jesus). They just hold that Mohammed was God's final prophet, and the Qur'an is more of an addendum to the Bible than an independent work.