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Gio Takahashi
06-13-2008, 09:22
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Hate speech or free speech? What much of West bans is protected in U.S.
By Adam Liptak

Wednesday, June 11, 2008
VANCOUVER, British Columbia: A couple of years ago, a Canadian magazine published an article arguing that the rise of Islam threatened Western values. The article's tone was mocking and biting, but it said nothing that conservative magazines and blogs in the United States did not say every day without fear of legal reprisal.


Things are different here. The magazine is on trial.
Under Canadian law, there is a serious argument that the article contained hate speech and that its publisher, Maclean's magazine, the nation's leading newsweekly, should be forbidden from saying similar things, forced to publish a rebuttal and made to compensate Muslims for injuring their "dignity, feelings and self respect."


The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, which held five days of hearings on those questions in Vancouver last week, will soon rule on whether Maclean's violated a provincial hate speech law by stirring up animosity toward Muslims.


As spectators lined up for the afternoon session last week, an argument broke out.


"It's hate speech!" yelled one man.


"It's free speech!" yelled another.


In the United States, that debate has been settled. Under the First Amendment, newspapers and magazines can say what they like about minority groups and religions - even false, provocative or hateful things - without legal consequence.


The Maclean's article, "The Future Belongs to Islam," was an excerpt from a book by Mark Steyn called "America Alone." The title was fitting: The United States, in its treatment of hate speech, as in so many areas of the law, takes a distinctive legal path.


"In much of the developed world, one uses racial epithets at one's legal peril, one displays Nazi regalia and the other trappings of ethnic hatred at significant legal risk and one urges discrimination against religious minorities under threat of fine or imprisonment," Frederick Schauer, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, wrote in a recent essay called "The Exceptional First Amendment."


"But in the United States," Schauer continued, "all such speech remains constitutionally protected."


Canada, Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech. Israel and France forbid the sale of Nazi items like swastikas and flags. It is a crime to deny the Holocaust in Canada, Germany and France.


Last week, the actress Brigitte Bardot, an animal rights activist, was fined €15,000, or $23,000, in France for provoking racial hatred by criticizing a Muslim ceremony involving the slaughter of sheep.


By contrast, U.S. courts would not stop the American Nazi Party from marching in Skokie, Illinois, in 1977, though the march was deeply distressing to the many Holocaust survivors there.


Six years later, a state court judge in New York dismissed a libel case brought by several Puerto Rican groups against a business executive who had called food stamps "basically a Puerto Rican program." The First Amendment, Justice Eve Preminger wrote, does not allow even false statements about racial or ethnic groups to be suppressed or punished just because they may increase "the general level of prejudice."


Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech.


"It is not clear to me that the Europeans are mistaken," Jeremy Waldron, a legal philosopher, wrote in The New York Review of Books last month, "when they say that a liberal democracy must take affirmative responsibility for protecting the atmosphere of mutual respect against certain forms of vicious attack."


Waldron was reviewing "Freedom for the Thought That We Hate: A Biography of the First Amendment" by Anthony Lewis, the former New York Times columnist. Lewis has been critical of attempts to use the law to limit hate speech.


But even Lewis, a liberal, wrote in his book that he was inclined to relax some of the most stringent First Amendment protections "in an age when words have inspired acts of mass murder and terrorism." In particular, he called for a re-examination of the Supreme Court's insistence that there is only one justification for making incitement a criminal offense: the likelihood of imminent violence.


The imminence requirement sets a high hurdle. Mere advocacy of violence, terrorism or the overthrow of the government is not enough; the words must be meant to, and be likely to, produce violence or lawlessness right away. A fiery speech urging an angry racist mob immediately to assault a black man in its midst probably qualifies as incitement under the First Amendment. A magazine article - or any publication - aimed at stirring up racial hatred surely does not.


Lewis wrote that there is "genuinely dangerous" speech that does not meet the imminence requirement. "I think we should be able to punish speech that urges terrorist violence to an audience, some of whose members are ready to act on the urging," Lewis wrote. "That is imminence enough."
Harvey Silverglate, a civil liberties lawyer in Boston, disagreed.


"When times are tough," he said, "there seems to be a tendency to say

there is too much freedom."


"Free speech matters because it works," Silverglate continued. Scrutiny and debate are more effective ways of combating hate speech than censorship, he said, and all the more so in the post-Sept. 11 era.
"The world didn't suffer because too many people read 'Mein Kampf,"' Silverglate said. "Sending Hitler on a speaking tour of the United States would have been quite a good idea."


Silverglate seemed to be echoing the words of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, whose 1919 dissent in Abrams v. United States eventually formed the basis for modern First Amendment law.


"The best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market," Holmes wrote. "I think that we should be eternally vigilant," he added, "against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be fraught with death."


The First Amendment is not, of course, absolute. The Supreme Court has said that the government may ban fighting words or threats. Punishments may be enhanced for violent crimes prompted by race hate. And private institutions, including universities and employers, are not subject to the First Amendment, which restricts only government activities.


But merely saying hateful things about minority groups, even with the intent to cause their members distress and to generate contempt and loathing, is protected by the First Amendment.


In 1969, for instance, the Supreme Court unanimously overturned the conviction of a leader of a Ku Klux Klan group under an Ohio statute that banned the advocacy of terrorism. The Klan leader, Clarence Brandenburg, had urged his followers at a rally to "send the Jews back to Israel," to "bury" blacks, though he did not call them that, and to consider "revengeance" against politicians and judges who were unsympathetic to whites.


Only Klan members and journalists were present. Because Brandenburg's words fell short of calling for immediate violence in a setting where such violence was likely, the Supreme Court ruled that he could not be prosecuted for incitement.


In his opening statement in the Canadian magazine case, a lawyer representing the Muslim plaintiffs aggrieved by the Maclean's article pleaded with a three-member panel of the tribunal to declare that the article subjected his clients to "hatred and ridicule" and to force the magazine to publish a response.


"You are the only thing between racist, hateful, contemptuous Islamophobic and irresponsible journalism," the lawyer, Faisal Joseph, told the tribunal, "and law-abiding Canadian citizens."


In response, a lawyer for Maclean's all but called the proceeding a sham.
"Innocent intent is not a defense," the lawyer, Roger McConchie, said, in a bitter criticism of the British Columbia hate speech law. "Nor is truth. Nor is fair comment on true facts. Publication in the public interest and for the public benefit is not a defense. Opinion expressed in good faith is not a defense. Responsible journalism is not a defense."


Jason Gratl, a lawyer for the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, which has intervened in the case, was measured in his criticism of the law forbidding hate speech.


"Canadians do not have a cast-iron stomach for offensive speech," Gratl said in a telephone interview. "We don't subscribe to a marketplace of ideas. Americans as a whole are more tough-minded and more prepared for verbal combat."


Many foreign courts have respectfully considered the U.S. approach - and then rejected it.


A 1990 decision from the Canadian Supreme Court, for instance, upheld the criminal conviction of James Keegstra for "unlawfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti-Semitic statements." Keegstra, a teacher, had told his students that Jews are "money loving," "power hungry" and "treacherous."


Writing for the majority, Chief Justice Robert Dickson said there was an issue "crucial to the disposition of this appeal: the relationship between Canadian and American approaches to the constitutional protection of free expression, most notably in the realm of hate propaganda."


Dickson said, "There is much to be learned from First Amendment jurisprudence." But he concluded that "the international commitment to eradicate hate propaganda and, most importantly, the special role given equality and multiculturalism in the Canadian Constitution necessitate a departure from the view, reasonably prevalent in America at present, that the suppression of hate propaganda is incompatible with the guarantee of free expression."


The distinctive U.S. approach to free speech, legal scholars say, has many causes. It is partly rooted in an individualistic view of the world. Fear of allowing the government to decide what speech is acceptable plays a role. So does history.


"It would be really hard to criticize Israel, Austria, Germany and South Africa, given their histories," for laws banning hate speech, said Schauer, the professor at Harvard, in an interview.


In Canada, however, the laws seem to stem from a desire to promote societal harmony. Three time zones east of British Columbia, the Ontario Human Rights Commission - while declining to hear a separate case against Maclean's - nonetheless condemned the article.


"In Canada, the right to freedom of expression is not absolute, nor should it be," the commission's statement said. "By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to 'the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."


British Columbia human rights law, unlike that in Ontario, does appear to allow claims based on statements published in magazines.
Steyn, the author of the Maclean's article, said the court proceeding illustrated some important distinctions. "The problem with so-called hate speech laws is that they're not about facts," he said in a telephone interview. "They're about feelings."


"What we're learning here is really the bedrock difference between the United States and the countries that are in a broad sense its legal cousins," Steyn added. "Western governments are becoming increasingly comfortable with the regulation of opinion. The First Amendment really does distinguish the U.S., not just from Canada but from the rest of the Western world."

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/11/america/hate.php

Charlie
06-13-2008, 10:26
Without free speech, the only thing differing us from other countries would be the size of our penis. If people want to say stupid shit, let them. If people want to say what they feel, let them. Let them bear the moral and social consequences of their actions. Personally, I DON'T want some fucking government higher-ups telling me what I can and can't say. I'd sooner stick a fork in a toaster after a shower than live with something like that with a clear conscience.

RonDo
06-13-2008, 11:41
I think we just like hearing ourselves talk.

Killer_Man_
06-13-2008, 23:50
The thing about free speech is, yes you can say anything you want. As long as it isn't slander or that other fancy word for writting down lies.

I think that's about it, save for threatening someone? O.o;

Seegtease
06-14-2008, 04:54
I'm really tired of Americans who actually think we need to be more Canadian.

Detrevni
06-14-2008, 17:06
OH NOES WE HAVE LESS GOVERNMENTAL CONTROLS ON WHAT WE CAN OR CAN'T SAY.

This is stupid. No one should ever be punished just for something they say. Words are not actions.

Arainach
06-15-2008, 04:24
OH NOES WE HAVE LESS GOVERNMENTAL CONTROLS ON WHAT WE CAN OR CAN'T SAY.

This is stupid. No one should ever be punished just for something they say. Words are not actions.How about yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre?

Killer_Man_
06-15-2008, 11:24
Or bomb in an airport?

Seegtease
06-15-2008, 13:55
Theaters are a private business, they can have rules against such things if you choose to enter. Airports are similar - they aren't the publics' playground. They also have the sole intent of causing trouble, while simple free speech just gives you the freedom to say things the way you would like.

Arainach
06-15-2008, 14:51
No one's arguing that businesses can't throw you out for saying things. We're asking whether you should be able to be criminally prosecuted for inciting panic in crowded places. Like you currently can be in the U.S.

Seegtease
06-15-2008, 22:23
Free speech, especially in writing, is a very different thing than inciting chaos. What was in the article was not somebody yelling fire in a public place, and there is nothing wrong with what they did.

Arainach
06-16-2008, 02:54
I know that. Which is why I was responding specifically to Detrevni's quote that no one should ever be prosecuted for "just for something they say".

Detrevni
06-16-2008, 03:01
An opinion piece in a magazine is radically different than inducing panic.

Arainach
06-16-2008, 03:03
But they're both just things someone said.

Detrevni
06-16-2008, 03:10
Creating a panic can cause injury or death if hte crowd gets out of control. You go beyond merely speaking to endangering people's well-being. A fricking opinion piece is just words on paper.

Arainach
06-16-2008, 03:14
See: Aftermath of the publication of the Mohammed cartoons in the Danish newspaper. What about that situation?

Detrevni
06-16-2008, 03:17
Also retarded. Allowing one religious group too much influence over media.

Arainach
06-16-2008, 03:27
Retarded, yes, but should the author be persecuted? He also created outrage, panic, and protests.

Gio Takahashi
06-16-2008, 10:23
The Freedom of speech revolves around what we can say to the people, which also follows the freedom of press. of course, it does not mean that we're not completely protected by Freedom of speech. If its with the intention to cause riot or panic, then it's illegal. (See 'FIRE!' in crowded theater for example.) If it's with intention to cause harm or offend people, it's illegal.

This is also true for inciting racism, or making hate speech. Basically, it's freedom of speech with some common sense. There's certain thing that you just can't do for the sake of common sense. Infact, it's quite illegal to spread racism and hate speech on this server, according to the terms of service ;P.

And as for the Muhammed Cartoon published in the Danish and other newspapers, that is just an example that people will always take your message in an entirely different way:


The Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy began after twelve editorial cartoons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editorial_cartoon), most of which depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad), were published in the Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) newspaper Jyllands-Posten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten) on 30 September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_30) 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005). The newspaper announced that this publication was an attempt to contribute to the debate regarding criticism of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam) and self-censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-censorship).


Danish Muslim organizations, who objected to the depictions, responded by holding public protests attempting to raise awareness of Jyllands-Posten's publication. The controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy) deepened when further examples of the cartoons were reprinted in newspapers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_that_reprinted_Jyllands-Posten%27s_Muhammad_cartoons) in more than fifty other countries.



Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy)



It's a tricky area. you publish on thing, some people will take it as a different way.

Killer_Man_
06-16-2008, 10:58
Retarded, yes, but should the author be persecuted? He also created outrage, panic, and protests.

No, he shouldn't. People need to lighten up and chill.

Bloodcinder
06-16-2008, 11:23
The concept of "hate speech" is silly to me. "Hate speech" is only validated as "hateful" because it's against minorities instead of the majority. If the reverse situation were the case, and it often is, then it wouldn't be called "hate speech."

Killer_Man_
06-16-2008, 13:41
Are you talking about when racism is bad but reverse racism is not?

Or saying, if I say all black people do is steal, loot and cause probelms.

But yet if a black person says WHITE PEOPLE ARE RED NECKS, THEY DESTROY OUR WORLD AND PEOPLE BLAH BLAH BLAH. He gets clapped, or laughs(If it's a comedian) and all that? Cause you know, one side is wrong but the other should be wrong but is right/ok to say?

Bloodcinder
06-16-2008, 13:45
Um... kinda. I'm just saying that it's silly to be biased with the "hate" label, so I would prefer people just not use it at all.

"Hate speech" is just a form of reciprocal demonization. And it's silly that I'm "allowed" by society to say that and most of you aren't.

Seegtease
06-16-2008, 19:51
Retarded, yes, but should the author be persecuted? He also created outrage, panic, and protests.

I don't think panic is the right word.

There's also a big difference here. People made a decision to throw a fit. It's also very different from yelling fire, since fire will actually make people panic instinctively. With something offensive, the reader has to think "hey, that's offensive" then react. The reaction is premeditated and entirely the responsibility of the reader, while the fire panic is spontaneous and most people couldn't control their reaction (immediately).

deathofcheese
06-16-2008, 23:29
The concept of "hate speech" is silly to me.

I agree. "Nigger" has been called the ugliest or most hateful word in the English language, yet it's such a good description for a large part of black American culture, nowadays. {Source: the episode of Boondocks where Huey does a "What If?" where MLK Jr. wakes up from a coma instead of dying.) Some black people even take it as a compliment now, and apparently, it's ok. Heaven forbid if a white person says it though.


No, he shouldn't. People need to lighten up and chill.

I never got to see these Muhammed cartoons, but I guess it'd be akin to the parody of Jesus raising from the dead and being kickass (e.g. the episode of Family Guy where Mel Gibson makes Passion of the Christ 2: Crucify This! [Let he who is without sin kick the most ass!] or the episode of Robot Chicken [Kill Bunny]), except someone actually making a movie like that and putting it forth into mainstream as a way of parodying the entire religion as well as texts like the Bible. Despite how funny it might be and "open" your views might be, as a good Christian, you're supposed to be offended. Well, Muslims don't take kindly to people talking about Muhammed except in very reverential tones. It's just part of their religion. I agree, the artist shouldn't be punished, although he might want to consider not being so vocal about it where he is, as they don't seem to have the same pervasive freedom of speech that America has, but it's not exactly just a matter of telling a whole religion to "calm the fuck down."

Gio Takahashi
06-17-2008, 00:10
Just google Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons and you'll see them.

Killer_Man_
06-17-2008, 00:28
I'm not offended cause I doubt the author or even the creator of Family Guy + Robot Chicken really harbor those feelings. It's a joke, get over it.

Bloodcinder
06-17-2008, 01:45
In the Muslim worldview, it's not a joke. It's not something to just get over. It doesn't do any good to tell them that.

Killer_Man_
06-17-2008, 03:28
Whatever, I just think people need to chill and relax.

Bloodcinder
06-17-2008, 12:18
Yes, I know you do. I'm saying that chilling simply does not always work.

Killer_Man_
06-17-2008, 13:52
True enough.

Seegtease
06-17-2008, 20:56
Christians have to deal with a society that will go against everything Christ stood for, and jokes will be made, blasphemes will be said, and it's even worse in other countries, even physical persecution. We can deal with it. So can they. In fact, I can see a day coming where you will, in America, get in trouble for mocking other deities in a comic, but nobody would stop you if that happened to be about the Christian God. Call me dramatic, but I don't think so.

But this isn't really the topic matter of the thread, exactly.

deathofcheese
06-17-2008, 21:10
But they're not Christians. Tolerance isn't part of their religion/culture and isn't why Islam has had the history it has.

Arainach
06-17-2008, 22:24
Bwahahahahahhaha.

Did you just insinuate that Christianity has a history of tolerance?

Bloodcinder
06-17-2008, 23:03
Relatively speaking, he's right. Jesus and Mohammed: only one of these spread a message of grace.

deathofcheese
06-17-2008, 23:44
No, what I meant was that Christianity looks like a saint next to Islam.

Arainach
06-18-2008, 00:34
Oh, now we're claiming that Christianity has anything at all to do with what Jesus preached. That's an even funnier joke. Both on absolute scale and in terms of average per year of existence, Christianity has far more blood, intolerance, and hideous things justified in its name than Islam.

Bloodcinder
06-18-2008, 01:05
Oh no, somebody is disagreeing with you on the internet!

Besides, this is so far away from the topic at this point.

Killer_Man_
06-18-2008, 01:19
Oh, now we're claiming that Christianity has anything at all to do with what Jesus preached. That's an even funnier joke. Both on absolute scale and in terms of average per year of existence, Christianity has far more blood, intolerance, and hideous things justified in its name than Islam.


He hasn't said that they didn't but the way America goes. Most people see a Christianity joke and everyone has to be 'ok' and not say much about it but if you publish ONE thing about Islamic like nature. People get all jumpy and pushy.

That is what he is saying. At least how I see it. I think Zeit touched it a bit too.

Gio Takahashi
06-18-2008, 08:17
geez. Make a new thread on this, this is woefully off topic.

Bloodcinder
06-18-2008, 11:42
I'll do it!

deathofcheese
06-18-2008, 19:49
Sorry, but this last comment belongs here. My intention with my first comment was to suggest that, despite how ugly Christianity can be, and largely has been in the past, Christianity contains/teaches a lot more tolerance than Islam does. I'm not trying to argue for or against Christianity or Islam, nor am I deluded to what Christianity really is or has been. My point was that, as a whole, in my experience, Islam has less tolerance, particularly in recent times (define that however far back you want to).