School Uniforms

[Seegtease]

Well, seeing the potential for a reasonable debate by SC in another thread, I figured I'd bring it up on its own.

Should schools enforce some kind of dress code? How far should they take it? Every school has it to a degree, after all, you can't go completely indecent. Should they just limit belly-showers or spaghetti-straps or is even that going too far? Should they not allow company or brand logos to be visible? Or should they issue certain uniforms to the students?

[Bloodcinder]

I think it's lame to have uniforms. That said, I think it's within the rights of any school, public or private, to dictate a uniform. Especially if it looks like this.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/377/61ea0.jpg

I think the issue is that without a uniform you have to be quite particular about what you will and will not accept, opening yourself up to allegations of bias. With a uniform, you simply preclude all of those situations.

[Z]

There are plenty of reasons to enforce school uniforms. As a student, I'd never support it but it's a very logical concept.

You no longer have as much of a divide in social classes within the school. Everyone is wearing the same thing. They can all just focus on being students rather than being hip or trendy at an age where it doesn't really matter anyway.

It would also save the student some preparation before school. It's no longer "What should I wear" but "which uniform did I wash last?"

Granted, it impedes a bit on a students individuality but it's not like they have to wear the uniforms outside of school as well. They can be an individual on their own time. *shrugs*

But, like I said, I would never support it as a student, lol.

[Mydra]

FYI, Bloodcinder(and others too), japanese uniforms generally AFAIK isn't that short. But girls tend to use shorter uniforms("who wants to look lame") so there is even annual checks that they really use their uniforms. So, they change into their uniforms, teacher marks them to use them and changes back...

Personally I don't really care about if I would need to use school uniforms. I'm not fashion geek.

But then, afaik young people(13-15, our middle school, maybe even younger now) uses most revealing clothing from all age-classes, though maybe because people tend to put formal clothing to work, but anyway.

[deathofcheese]

http://www.unitedempire.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=8&pictureid=174

I had to wear a white shirt and blue shorts/pants every school day for three years. On special occasions and the weekly Mass, I had to wear a nicer white shirt with a tie and blue shorts/pants. Occasionally, there'd be a "tag day" where you could bring in a quarter or two and not get a demerit for wearing your personal clothes.

Although I didn't like it all the time, it does cut down on having to pick what you wear in the morning. Plus, no one's going to harass you for your clothes, and you're not pressured to get expensive ones to show everyone up. In that respect, it was nice, and I think it's a good idea. It was pretty boring all the time, so I'm not sure if my kids will be made to endure it.

One of the nicest uniform schemes I've heard of is one where as long as you're wearing something with school colors (that's not offensive or otherwise has a design/logo on it) or a school logo, and semi-nice pants and shoes, you can choose to wear whatever you want.

My personal feelings about dress code merely cover decency and obscene clothes. Obviously, don't wear clothes that show too much or have something objectionable on them, with the administration being the final word on the matter. No flip-flops, no house shoes (slippers), no swim suits, no see-through clothes, etc. Belts must be worn with shorts or pants unless pants do not sag at all. I'm ok with headgear like bandanas (so long as it's not gang-related), but no hats indoors.

One of the biggest failures of dress codes is enforcement, though. Administrators seem to develop favorites and will sometimes look the other way. That's a big problem. If kids see that some people get away with breaking the rules, then they're going to think that they can break the rules too. But when they can't break the rules, then they're unhappy. Whereas, if everyone is made to follow the dress code and no one slips by, then there's no problem.

[Arainach]

If kids can't form groups based on clothing, they'll find other ways. They always do. I find the concept ridiculous and pointless. Should there be a dress code? Yes. Should there be uniforms? No.

[Z]

I've never known kids to form groups around clothing, anyway. I've just known rich kids to lord it over less-privileged kids which is something I wouldn't want to encourage.

Clothes just always made it quicker to find out what people stood for but I've never known clothes, in general, to be the social focus of a group. Otherwise the Ralph Lauren Kids vs the Tommy kids would have been hilarious to see at lunch period.

[Killer_Man_]

Z, you could always do what I did.

Back when I was 14ish, Wal-mart had just came to my city and had a huge clothing sale. I bought 20 of the same color shirts, shorts and jeans.

Thus being, I saved a ton of money and as well just grabbed whatever was clean and put it on.

I really don't give a hell what the 'richer' kids wore or even made fun of me. I just laughed at them for worrying about something so trivial as clothing.

To me, I wouldn't care if I had to wear uniforms or forced my kids to.

My high school did have a limit on what you could and could not wear but kids did it anyway, especially the girls during spring time. I couldn't believe in middle school and high school how less clothing the girls wore. It was insane.

But then again, even during Halloween and other occasions when I worked at the arcade how little girls from 4-10ish would wear clothing that a 21 year old would wear. Short shorts, shirts that would say Deliciously cute blah blah blah.

I'm really in the middle for uniforms, I wouldn't yay it or nay it.

[Seegtease]

Maybe it didn't bother you, KM, but there are those who don't take laughter and teasing so well.

I support at least a strict code, if not uniforms. The obvious reason is that it breaks financial barriers. Why do kids want the name brand clothing? So they will have the name brand clothing, and people will be impressed for name brand clothing. But why should the poorer students have to suffer because the richer can have an advantage? Nobody should have an advantage in a school due to finances. Sure, there are a lot of things to form social groups around, but if we can eliminate financial status, why shouldn't we? Students should not feel pressured to keep up with a trend, and parents shouldn't have to bear the stress of listening to their kid beg for such outfits.

The second reason, at least for a code, is distractions. If people are wearing distracting outfits, either due to silliness, skin revealed, or something else, that has no place in a school. By no means do I wish for individuality to be suppressed, but this type of individuality really has no place in a learning institution. There is supposed to be one focus at school, and that's learning the topic matters. If they want to wear their special clothing, keep it outside of the school.

Lastly, usually such a program can provide affordable opportunities for low-income families to get decent clothing. It's not like anything is wrong with the uniforms. They're not stylish for a teenager, but they are decent clothing, and some parents may be forced to buy used clothing depending on their budget. I don't normally consider stuff like this to be a factor, but clothing tends to be pretty important.

In any case, even if there aren't many advantages, I can't think of any disadvantages other than the student "not liking their outfit." But I think learning to do things because they have to, not because they want to, is a good life lesson for when they're out on their own. So even that becomes an advantage.

[Arainach]

"Breaking financial barriers" can be a huge stress on poorer students, especially families with multiple kids. Since when have you known schools to go for the cheapest option?

[Killer_Man_]

"Breaking financial barriers" can be a huge stress on poorer students, especially families with multiple kids. Since when have you known schools to go for the cheapest option?

Public schools and most schools supply the uniforms/aide? Eh, even then, all you need is school supplies which is cheap if you buy them at the right time. Plus I was used to getting shoes once a year and making my cloths last. Supplies isn't the problem, it's the clothing.

That and I should mention that I have met a few good rich kids whose parents were strict on what they buy, when and make their kid work for it.

Maybe it didn't bother you, KM, but there are those who don't take laughter and teasing so well.

I support at least a strict code, if not uniforms. The obvious reason is that it breaks financial barriers. Why do kids want the name brand clothing? So they will have the name brand clothing, and people will be impressed for name brand clothing. But why should the poorer students have to suffer because the richer can have an advantage? Nobody should have an advantage in a school due to finances. Sure, there are a lot of things to form social groups around, but if we can eliminate financial status, why shouldn't we? Students should not feel pressured to keep up with a trend, and parents shouldn't have to bear the stress of listening to their kid beg for such outfits.

Perhaps but I still got flak, even if it wasn't about cloths. Most kids from what I remember look at this.

Status - What has he done to be known? Is he a jock? Is he a nerd? Blah blah blah.

Wealth - Even with uniforms, how the house looks and etc can be determined.

Social - How well does he mingle? How -cool is he-?

Grades - Good grades = nerdier/uptight/going with the system blah blah blah.

I know there is a lot more and with uniforms one could easily still determine what group will he/she be in. Especially if they don't look normal(Aka birth defects, weight and etc.).

I remember a lot of kids, espeically doctor kids who felt they were 'holier and mightier' because they were rich. The kid didn't even wear name brands but I remember how he said I was the scum of the earth blah blah blah. Good thing I remember to make fun of him for failing a class that I was aceing(sp?) in.

And yes, but by the time I hit high school, I was a shock trooped. I was -used- to being made fun of.

The second reason, at least for a code, is distractions. If people are wearing distracting outfits, either due to silliness, skin revealed, or something else, that has no place in a school. By no means do I wish for individuality to be suppressed, but this type of individuality really has no place in a learning institution. There is supposed to be one focus at school, and that's learning the topic matters. If they want to wear their special clothing, keep it outside of the school.If I remember, some kids might find uniforms to be sexier than clothing. It hides the body and as well... Could be sexier cause of skirts, whatever.

Lastly, usually such a program can provide affordable opportunities for low-income families to get decent clothing. It's not like anything is wrong with the uniforms. They're not stylish for a teenager, but they are decent clothing, and some parents may be forced to buy used clothing depending on their budget. I don't normally consider stuff like this to be a factor, but clothing tends to be pretty important.I'm sure they would provide for those who are low income or some payment plan.

In any case, even if there aren't many advantages, I can't think of any disadvantages other than the student "not liking their outfit." But I think learning to do things because they have to, not because they want to, is a good life lesson for when they're out on their own. So even that becomes an advantage.As I keep telling people especially when I was in HS and that I go to the arcade/used to work there. I tell those teens that fuck what you look like and fuck what you dress. You go to school to learn not be a fashion statement or impress people. Especially since some of them now realize that they are seniors and when they leave, no one cares who you are and what you are and your little friends will disappear as we go through life.

That and I hold work the same way, I go to work to work, not chit chat and make friends.

[Arainach]

That and I hold work the same way, I go to work to work, not chit chat and make friends.In work especially, but in school as well, this is a fallacy. No matter how well you perform, if you don't get along with people and network to make connections, you'll never get that far.

[Killer_Man_]

In work especially, but in school as well, this is a fallacy. No matter how well you perform, if you don't get along with people and network to make connections, you'll never get that far.

Fallacy how so? I had five best friends and kept to myself. Those five best friends were nerds like me into computers, video games and Magic the Gathering.

I kept to myself and didn't talk that much at school.

You now know one of the reasons perhaps my social skills suck and as well how I talk/write.

[Z]

If you're good at your job, you're good at your job. If you're bad at your job, it doesn't matter how many people you know, you're not going to get a promotion or a raise when you clearly can't perform unless you're already so rich that you don't even need to work anyway (i.e. a dumb person working for their rich daddy)

[Seegtease]

Ary is kinda right. It's important to get along with your workmates and classmates. But if anything, a uniform gives one less barrier to sever those connections you might otherwise make with your classmates.

I'd like to hear some good reasons why uniforms should NOT exist.

[Arainach]

Because the point of school isn't 'shut up, sit down, memorize facts', it's to learn how to think, how to learn, and how to express yourself. The actual facts are largely superficial.

[Seegtease]

You can do all of that in uniform. No uniform allows you to "express your parents income", not "yourself".

[Arainach]

I disagree.

[Seegtease]

You just want to wear your cute pink Abercrombie and Fitch pink tee to school.

[Killer_Man_]

Uniforms doesn't mind control you.

Besides, by the way you said it, school could be a form of 'mind control' or making you think like a 'collective'.

[Arainach]

Who was that in reply to? If me, you missed the entire point of my post. Schools that are strictly about conformism and uniformity are almost a form of mind control. My point is that education should be about developing your ability to learn and perform as an individual, not a cookie cutter.

[Charlie]

I'd support a dress code. Something outlawing the slutty clothing, coming in shirtless, that type of stuff. But as far as outlawing certain trends, brand names, logos, whatever, that is where it gets stupid. And NO WAY AT ALL would I support a uniform. Student or no student. A school with a uniform is where I don't want my kid, if I ever have one.

[Killer_Man_]

Who was that in reply to? If me, you missed the entire point of my post. Schools that are strictly about conformism and uniformity are almost a form of mind control. My point is that education should be about developing your ability to learn and perform as an individual, not a cookie cutter.

I was being sarcastic because as a friend told me. They are forcing you to become a 'productive' person. Making you learn laws, history and etc. They are 'training you'.

And I was as well being sarcastic because making you wear a uniform to be a 'uniformity' so you look a like does not hurt anyone.

I don't see why you would say anything to that manner.

If schools are there to learn and perform.

What you wear should have no bearing, uniform required or not.

[Gio Takahashi]

Who was that in reply to? If me, you missed the entire point of my post. Schools that are strictly about conformism and uniformity are almost a form of mind control. My point is that education should be about developing your ability to learn and perform as an individual, not a cookie cutter.

I'm going to disagree, (OH YES I SO WENT THERE!) and boy am I going to disagree big time. This is from personal experience too. I don't see how is it that Uniforms form a 'collectives', people still express their individuality. Having gone through schools with uniforms for 6 years there was anything but collective thinking.

In the six y ears of wearing uniforms (first three at middle school, which had blue (or white buttoned shirt) polo shirt, and and dark, nearly black slacks for guys. Girls had Blue (or white buttoned shirt) and plaid blue/skyblue/gold skirts and skorts. (Yes, they called it skorts 0.o). They used to be allowed to wear pants and shorts for the first couple of years, but then they changed the code so that you have to wear skirts.

Then there's high school, where guys and girls could wear white polo shirt, and white khaki pants. face have to be completely shaved (you'll even get a detention for having a day old stubble, I remember a lot of guys having to protest about that.). Everyone was still different, individuality existed as much as it did if there's no uniform policy.

Because the point of school isn't 'shut up, sit down, memorize facts', it's to learn how to think, how to learn, and how to express yourself. The actual facts are largely superficial.

Uniform or no uniform, everyone at my schools, both schools were able to express themselves just fine. I like it. There's no 'dividing line' based on how you dress, there shouldn't ever be one. Hence one of the reason why Uniforms are there. You should be able to express yourself, based on yourself and your individuality.

Kids are going to make friends with others that dresses 'with the trend', I was never 'with the trend' of course, I never did care about the brand names, or whatever. Uniform made it easy on me, and made it easy on my parents.

I didn't like it at first, having to wear same thing everyday, but later on, I learned to accept it, and few years ago, I understood why. Therefore, I perfectly support uniforms, if not just strict dress codes.

[deathofcheese]

Schools that are strictly about conformism and uniformity are almost a form of mind control. My point is that education should be about developing your ability to learn and perform as an individual, not a cookie cutter.I never felt repressed or that I was being made to conform. Everyone wore the same kinds of clothes, sure, but there weren't strict rules like "You must wear this shirt and these pants." As long as you wore a white polo (could've gotten it from anywhere, so long as the only design was an itty bitty logo) and blue pants/shorts. Originally, we had to wear those brown shoes with the orange soles, but eventually, that was changed to black sneakers for boys and white sneakers for girls. (For the sneakers, the school preferred you to use a specific line of Reeboks because some vendors agreed to wholesale them to the school and for uniformity. But really, as long as you had plain black or white sneakers with no overt designs on them, you were ok.) During the summer, the school would hold sales for uniform clothes where you could come and sift through a bunch of used clothing for uber cheap or a selection of new clothing for pretty cheap. In fact, during our time there, we probably saved money by buying the cheaper clothes that the school provided.

We were still allowed to wear jewelry, like necklaces, rings and watches, and, like I mentioned before, there were still certain days where you were allowed to dress out of uniform. PE clothes were anything you wanted to wear as long as it was tasteful and you could exercise in them. I think my school's priority was to ensure that every one looked decent while at the same time looking uniform and being as equal as possible. Any kind of automaton-thinking we were impressed with was the result of certain classes (in my case, Religion class and having a small Mass every week).