Warcraft III

[Seegtease]

Anybody play it? I have a hamachi server up (I don't like to play on Bnet since my friend doesn't have an legit copy) so I can play over a virtual LAN, and it works perfectly. I like to play the custom maps that people have made, mostly RPGs, open or story, and tower defenses. I'm not big on PVP in much of any game, but there are some really good maps in those two genres alone.

If anybody is interested, I can PM my hamachi address and password and we can play some evening, I can probably round up my wife and my friend who I play it with often.

Also general discussion about WC3 here is sweet, too. Map recommendations are nice.

[Z]

I don't play the multiplayer anymore but the single player campaigns were pretty fun.

[Seegtease]

Well I don't play with random people and I don't really play competitively, either. I play a little differently, and there's enough variety to keep me interested.

[Killer_Man_]

I don't do Warcraft III especially when an easy comp can smash you cause of his high level hero and you forget to level your hero.

I just don't like WCIII/Frozen Throne.

[Seegtease]

I don't play that either, KM. I play custom maps, which are absolutely nothing like the real game save for they use the same engine. In fact, some are so changed you can hardly tell they are the same game.

Swat: The Aftermath (http://redscull.com/swat/readmeafter.html) is a fine example.

[Z]

I didn't warm up to the Multi Player mostly due to the new Hero system but it didn't stifle my enjoyment of the game during the single player campaigns. I mostly liked WC3, though, because it was the first installment to really go into the story/lore as deep as it did. The previous installments usually only provided little written prompts between battles.

[llama_egg]

*cough* DOTA *cough*

[Killer_Man_]

I know you don't but DOTA, Tides of Blood and etc are boring to me too. I just don't like WCIII.

[Seegtease]

Did you even look at the link I provided? I can hardly call that creation WC3 anyway, so I don't think you can even compare it to the game.

[Killer_Man_]

It's not the maps, I just don't like WCIII. Regardless of how much you change it.

[Seegtease]

Yet you play Starcraft, which is like an inferior version of Warcraft III. Your statement is like saying "I don't like America no matter what century it is." As if you hate it simply by name alone.

[llama_egg]

Yet you play Starcraft, which is like an inferior version of Warcraft III

BLASPHEMY! Starcraft > Warcraft III, without question.

[Seegtease]

Don't kid yourself. A good map maker could clone Starcraft with the Warcraft III engine. It's that flexible.

[deathofcheese]

Starcraft > Warcraft IIIBLASPHEMY! There's no comparison! Warcraft can't hope to hold a candle to Starcraft.

I played Warcraft 3 and got pretty close to the end of it, but I just played it for the story, as I was pretty interested in finding out why WoW was shaped as it was. (That's actually not a good plan. Blizzard pretty well raped the lore of Warcraft to come up with a more-or-less permanent world for Warcraft to hold an MMO in.) I hated the engine and the game wasn't all that fun in my eyes. The engine looked too cartoony to be taken seriously and the whole game was crippled by the lack of stategy. The only strategy that I could find that worked was to constantly keep a steady flow of units coming and steamroll your opponent's base(s). Of course, no matter what difficulty you played on, the computer would do that too, except with a third of the units you used.

[Gio Takahashi]

Glad to know that I'm not the only one that saw it that way.

[chefTENGU]

I bought it a while back, and still have yet to install it.

I'm getting around to it. Although from what sechoes says, about the whole "lore rape" thing, I think I might be disappointed...

But I'm still willing to give the game a fair shake.

[Killer_Man_]

BLASPHEMY! There's no comparison! Warcraft can't hope to hold a candle to Starcraft.

I played Warcraft 3 and got pretty close to the end of it, but I just played it for the story, as I was pretty interested in finding out why WoW was shaped as it was. (That's actually not a good plan. Blizzard pretty well raped the lore of Warcraft to come up with a more-or-less permanent world for Warcraft to hold an MMO in.) I hated the engine and the game wasn't all that fun in my eyes. The engine looked too cartoony to be taken seriously and the whole game was crippled by the lack of stategy. The only strategy that I could find that worked was to constantly keep a steady flow of units coming and steamroll your opponent's base(s). Of course, no matter what difficulty you played on, the computer would do that too, except with a third of the units you used.




Lore rape? Um, Sechoes, do you realize a lot of the lore was based on the books?(That I never read because I am not into it.)

Second WoW is suppose to be many many many years AFTER WCIII/Frozen Throne.

I don't even own WCIII. My little brother does and I played it just for the storyline really.

Broodwar/Starcraft MIGHT be inferior and it is inferior map design(Though there are many hacked versions out there to produce more effects that should have been in there.).

But I like Broodwar/Starcraft more. I just hope SCII will have a better map designer. Especially since I could never figure out how to trigger doors to open.

[Seegtease]

Gah, none of you have played any decent custom maps. Let me give you a hint: *I* haven't even played any single player campaigns.

Don't let the single player game itself turn you off from those. I wasn't kidding when I said a good map maker could turn WC3 into Starcraft+. It's extremely customizable.

[Killer_Man_]

I don't doubt you Zeit about how the editor is, I used to toy with the editor.

Look, it isn't about the custom maps, it isn't about anything.

SC is just MORE FUN. I'd rather play 1v1, 2v2 or whatever against people. NOT CUSTOM MAPS. Custom maps get boring rather fast.

Second, WC turns me off so fast especially cause you have to make sure you have enough of this and that and level your hero.

I'm tired of 'tower defense' and etc.

Why? Because of starcraft. Because that's nothing my brother and I would play. Hell there was a turret defense that my little brother and I played that we could duo and win.

[deathofcheese]

What I said was, the only reason I wanted to play and kept playing through Warcraft III after I saw what playing was like was that I wanted to know the story. WoW was my first introduction to Warcraft, so I felt like I missed out on a lot of things. WoW doesn't necessarily go, "backstory? canon? pssh." It just takes a lot of things that were established in the previous canon, bends them, retcons them, and throws them out where applicable. As long as you don't evaluate each based solely on the story or each's adherence to a story, then you'll enjoy it (if you appreciate and like the engine, AI and gameplay).

But yes, I will stand by my statement that Blizzard will gladly give lore a backseat towards making the next cash cow expansion in WoW.

[Killer_Man_]

Death, if WCIII is your first intro into WC lore then you need to play WC, WCII and then torrent the books because a lot of the things in WoW was cause of the books and all.

[Gio Takahashi]

True, Custom Maps could be the biggest replay factor for games, I know Starcraft was definitely the case,e specially in multiplayers. I played Starcraft for battle.net LONG before I finally played the single player mode, although both mode was fun.,

[deathofcheese]

Trust me, Warcraft III wasn't the only lore I looked up. I did several nights of wiki-surfing on the WarcraftWiki in addition to playing Warcraft III. I didn't want to play the older ones because I think Warcraft III, being the most recent and most-related addition to the story would be the most interesting, or at least the most relevant.

And who reads books? This is the age of Wikipedia, anime and videogames. NO BUKS ALOWD.

[Gio Takahashi]

I still read books. Books are fun.

[Killer_Man_]

Trust me, Warcraft III wasn't the only lore I looked up. I did several nights of wiki-surfing on the WarcraftWiki in addition to playing Warcraft III. I didn't want to play the older ones because I think Warcraft III, being the most recent and most-related addition to the story would be the most interesting, or at least the most relevant.

And who reads books? This is the age of Wikipedia, anime and videogames. NO BUKS ALOWD.


Remember what you said about Wiki and using them for reports? The same goes for WCwiki.

[Seegtease]

I tried some custom maps in SC before. They just didn't shine like the WC3 maps do. Honestly, what does SC have that WC3 doesn't (potentially) have? You could get a custom map in WC3 and do a regular 2v2 battle if you wanted. Heck, the map could even be made to emulate SC. Why do you people not see this? And tower defenses in WC3 are a totally different world than in SC. The level heroes system is one thing that makes it so versatile.

Final Fantasy Epic RPG (http://www.epicwar.com/maps/44509/)

Job change system, unique leveling speeds for jobs, items with level caps, all kinds of wacky stuff, and so much can be saved. It's funz.

[deathofcheese]

KM, the difference between using wikipedia as a serious source of primary information for any academic assignment and using a Warcraft wiki for recreational reading of the lore behind a video game used solely for entertainment is vast. Obviously, not everything in the 'official' Warcraft canon is going to make it into the wiki and maybe not everything on the wiki came from a book or a game. However, considering that we're talking about a videogame and that I'm not trying to write a dissertation on the origin of the Orc or Troll species, I think my having read the Warcraft wiki is more that satisfactory for giving me knowledge of the Warcraft canon.

If you're still unconvinced, you seriously would have me track down and read books written about Warcraft (stop for a second and think about that, real-world books written about Warcraft that continue the canon that are sold in serious bookstores like Books-a-Million, Barnes & Noble, and Waldenbooks) just to further supplement at-best useless trivial knowledge of the lore of one video game franchise?

Pardon me, but I think my time would be far better wasted (yes, I went there) reading source material about the Warhammer and Warhammer 40k canons.

[Killer_Man_]

Because I grew up on SC/BW that is why I like it, I never even heard of Warcraft till the third one.

And the difference is? Balance and all you have to focus is on minerals, gas and your units.

You don't have to level up the hero, look for wood, look for gold, NO FUCKING UPKEEP and other aspects.

I just like SC/BW more...

And perhaps it could emulate SC but emulation is shitty.

EDIT:

Sechoes, just forget it. -.-; I am just saying most of the lore and all that after what happened in WCIII was in the books.

Same with Diablo...

Hell I think after WC/WCII most of the books made up WCIII/WoW.

[Gio Takahashi]

The maps on SC/BW battle.net are amazing, people actually managed to override some of the games limitation and gave the 'heros' and 'characters' levels and turned a battle map into a full fledged RPG map.

[Seegtease]

I don't see why leveling up a hero is a downside. Seriously. That's a pretty sweet aspect that just gives the game more depth and things to do. And your prime examples are finding gold and lumber? You have to do that in almost any RTS. Not to mention they are exempt from most custom maps. At least, normal mining with peons and stuff are.

And it could emulate it with more features than SC could ever dream of.

[Killer_Man_]

Emulate what? Utter shit? You can't take a space RTS and put it into WCIII. I'm sorry but I wouldn't like that.

If you read more of my post, you would have read this. UPKEEP UPKEEP UPKEEP!

Gio: That's cause they hacked the world editor and added more features such as special colors and etc.

Once again, the levleing up a hero is a downside cause it diverts your attention and as well if you only have level 5 and someone else has level 10. OH LOOK U LOZE.

That is why WCII > WCIII.

[deathofcheese]

If people have the technical capability to change the engine to their whims, I'm sure it's not that hard to swap some resources around to make Warcraft III look like you mine crystals, harvest gas, have no upkeep but now require supply. I mean, the few truly custom maps I've played in Starcraft (like the one where the area in the middle is filled with constantly-generated Marines that march to the center and start shooting and the players interact by moving units to beacons to give their units powerups or "buy" more powerful units) completely throw away a good many of the 'required' mechanics that normal maps have.

[Gio Takahashi]

Gio: That's cause they hacked the world editor and added more features such as special colors and etc.


Uh.. I know?

The maps on SC/BW battle.net are amazing, people actually managed to override some of the games limitation and gave the 'heros' and 'characters' levels and turned a battle map into a full fledged RPG map.

Once again, the levleing up a hero is a downside cause it diverts your attention and as well if you only have level 5 and someone else has level 10. OH LOOK U LOZE.

Then level it up more. Don't think that's hard to do.

[Seegtease]

Once again, the levleing up a hero is a downside cause it diverts your attention and as well if you only have level 5 and someone else has level 10. OH LOOK U LOZE.

Leveling is a way of life. See: All MMOs. Again, I prefer to play co-op rather than competitively anyhow.

[Killer_Man_]

if I want to level up, I'll play a MMORPG, not a RTS.

[chefTENGU]

I'm bringing this thread back to life since I finally got around to installing WCIII and playing a bit a couple weeks ago.

I can see what everyone was complaining about; I'm no fan of the upkeep either, and I can see what everyone means about the resources. You might as well call this game "Gold Hunt." On top of that, the computer always does seem to have insane advantages over the human player, no matter what the difficulty. I've been trying really hard to get better by playing some custom battles against the AI, and I've only ever managed to survive by attaching myself to some allies and hoping they bail me out when the other computers come to kick my ass with more troops than I could ever hope to muster. And I've yet to emerge both victorious and as a top performer in my alliance.

I think the computer seriously has to cheat in order to train such massive clusterfucks of units. There's no way they could possibly avoid high upkeep like that; I have a hard enough time getting my shit together on no/low upkeep.

However, I have to disagree with the complaints about the hero system. I actually like the idea, and the one strategy that has consistently worked for me is to churn out all three heroes and use them in the same group. They bring insane benefits with their passive buff abilities, especially the Human ones (my little force of 12—the 3 heroes, 4 footmen, and 5 riflemen—are pretty much unstoppable, since the paladin can turn invincible, heal, and provides a serious boost to armor while the archmage rejuvenates his mana and summons water elementals).

Speaking of which, I love that they brought back water elementals. They were my favorite unit from Warcraft I.

Another nice thing is the capacity to revive your slain heroes with their XP intact. I always avoided getting my heroes involved in combat in Warcraft II simply because I had to try so hard to keep them alive.

I do miss the naval aspect of Warcraft II, but oh well.

The only major disappointment I've had with the game is that I can't recreate one of the custom maps I made for Warcraft II long ago. I made it a free-for-all in the middle of a massive forest. Everyone started with a near-infinite gold mine and utterly surrounded by trees. You either had to carve a path through the woods to find your adversaries, or crank out the air units and get to searching.

Instead, in this map builder I keep hitting an upward limit on the amount of trees I'm allowed to have on a particular map. What the fuck?

[Seegtease]

Limit of trees? You must be doing something wrong. I've never used the builder, but I've seen some INSANE custom maps (forest epic sized maps, too). As I've said before, the game is very customizable, which is one of the reasons I enjoy it.

Invincibility is broken. It would be good, but if you use it, the enemies stop attacking the Paladin. I've played a custom map where "invincibility" actually made you get 10k armor, so enemies would still try to attack you, but it wouldn't hurt you.

Also, I have no idea why they eliminated the navy. It's very sad.

You need to start playing through the campaign if you haven't. It's a very interesting story.

[chefTENGU]

I have, since it was the main reason I bought the game.

I'm not very far. I just got to "The Culling" in the Human campaign. I gave it a try and become very frustrated with not being able to build fast enough and fending off attacks to my town while that asshole vampire keeps collecting zombies.

I'll try again at some point.

The message I get when I try to make the map I want is: "Maximum number of trees/destructibles exceeded!"

I can continue to place trees, but I am given an ever-increasing number of just how many trees I am over by.

[Seegtease]

Make sure to kill him when you can. It delays his work by about 3 minutes, but also keep a few troops and towers in your base and keep your villagers working. You probably only need about 6 troops with Arthas to keep doing his thing successfully.

[Trogdor]

I like SC game mechanics much more than WC3 game mechanics, but WC3 custom maps are still much better than SC custom maps. There really is no comparing StarEdit to World Editor. It's like comparing a cardboard box to a mansion.

Ok, maybe it's more like comparing a small house to a mansion, but still...

It reminds me of HL Rally, that racing mod for Half-Life. Some game engines are just more flexible than others. It's possible to do some clever stuff with SC, but it usually feels jury rigged.


The message I get when I try to make the map I want is: "Maximum number of trees/destructibles exceeded!"

I can continue to place trees, but I am given an ever-increasing number of just how many trees I am over by.

Did some googling and found this thread (http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87026). The first reply seems relevant, and led me here (http://www.thehelper.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47918). Also, found this on the last page of that second thread:

Jass NewGen relies on DLL injection which some antiviruses detect as a threat despite the fact it isn't.

Something to keep in mind if you decide to try that out.

[Seegtease]

I remember trying some SC maps with you, I think. They had implemented some kind of skill point system you had to spend at a special unit. It was clever, no doubt, but I can't imagine how much more work it took to implement when the same amount of work on a WC3 map could yield something like... Dark Invasion (http://www.darkinvasion.co.nr/) or Final Fantasy Epic RPG. (http://www.pollama.com/final-fantasy-epic-rpg/) Or Swat: The Aftermath. (http://www.redscull.com/swat/) If you try any of those, chef, I assure you they will show you how flexible the engine truly is. Especially DI and Swat.
(http://www.redscull.com/swat/)